SUNDANCE 2007

Hello my mother was good friends with Sylvia Likens and I would like to know where we could see this movie I know my mom would like to . I personally have always been very interested about the Likens story

I understand the movie is now set for release on August 31st due to some distributor issues. I'm glad the movie was made. It's about time! The make movies about the murders of OJ Simpson's wife and her friend; they make movies about the Klutter Family massacre in Kansas so why not Sylvia Likens? I've grown up knowing about this horror here in Indianapolis. I'm just glad now days that family members, neighbors, and strangers (In most cases) would not stand for this kind of abuse. It wouldn't have gone on that long before someone was hauled off to jail. What's really sad is, it only took that vile, sick, deviate Gertrude and her evil brood 3 months to kill Sylvia. Though this movie won't change anything about what happened, it may make us all realize that all children are at the mercy of grown ups.

I was eight years old when this happened, most people that are around my age remember this tragedy. I do know that Gertrude passed away in 1990 and Jenn passed in 2004. Sylvia will always be remembered, I just wish that someone could have helped her.

where can i get this movie??????????????????????? has anyone read the girl next door if so what other book are there i have also read the basement.

John,,, I hear there having problems with the release of this movie... Steve Hostetter

Caleb Baker,,,, Where did Gertrude live at the time she watched you...? The death house on New York?

Where can I see this movie or buy this movie?

He should change his name back to Cougar and start doing rock and roll again...

caleb baker #11 I would ove to talk to you, me and a friend are writing a book about sylvia please email me stacybundren616@att.net please thank you

kevin, is that intended for me or what??????? I didnt fail her i wasn't even born I'm just trying to let indiana not forget her. I think its great I Love Sylvia. Ihate GERTRUDE. who are you to judge???

yes it is very sad and i think indiana has forgotten how they fail so many children i also think indiana has poor system. they give yah more time for drugs than they do murder???????????? sorry i thught you was refering to me writing a book

There is another movie called, "Jack Ketchum's a girl next door" about the same story very graphic and made me ill to my stomache for two day.s and cant sleep that good anymore, the movie affected me bad, just as the story has about this poor girl. What I find is tragic also is the fact that gertrude only did 20 yrs, and the kids did only 18 month stint in juvenile hall. Indiana should be ashamed of itself.

I hate gertrude, and those teens that helped do that I hope they live a torturous life.Anybody doing this kind of stuff, shoudl forfit there right to be on the streets forever.She was such a beautiful girl and these maggots destroyed that.If I ever met these teens in real life I would slap the hell out of them. BURN IN HELL GERTRUDE, you sicko

The theatrical release date of this movie is 12/31/2010. Why are they releasing it so late.

When is the movie comming out? I saw on one site it said Augest 19th, but I've heard March and even May ... and then dvd in october? so when ?

The Sylvia Likens Memorial is in Willard Park, at State St. and E. Washington St, on Indy's east side. The house at 3850 E. New York is currently boarded up and vacant, probably for sale. The house two doors down, where R.Hobbs lived is currently empty and for rent. As far as I know, the only one who may still alive is Paula B., somewhere in Iowa. Hubbard died within the last couple years. Johnny B. is now John Blake, and supposedly a preacher.

I worked for Lester Likens ,once when I was 14 and again at age 15 when the Marion County Fair came to town... I worked on a rig called a rope ladder .... Was a prize game and the object was to climb to the top and honk a horn to win a huge stuffed animal... I ran away from home w/ a friend at age 16 to join up with Lester at Crown Point IN.. Right away Lester wanted to know if our parents knew where we were... We told him no they did not.. Lester right away took us to his trailer and made us call our parents to let them know we were alive and well and traveling with the carnival... I can remember going into the trailer his wife was there and she was talking to Lester in a whisper voice telling him she didn't want anymore bad happening in the family... I also remember seeing a large pink trunk which I found out later held memories of Sylvia.. I always thought Lester was a good man, I know my parents thanked him.. The whole time I knew Lester I knew he had something terrible happen to his daughter (Sylvia) but I never made the connection untill many years later... As I said I was only 16 the same age as Sylvia when she died... Lester told me once that I reminded him of someone ... I asked him who and he said someone that is gone now but was very dear to him... I noticed that Lester's character in the movie is drinking beer and portrays him as kind of a drunk.. Lester may have drank in those days I don't know but in the time I knew Lester (1975-77) I never seen Lester drink... never. And I seen Lester many times... The friend I had ran away with stole 50 cents from Lester's rig for a pack of smokes... Lester found out and fired us both.. When I begged for my job he said no he said go home and go back to school ,get into sports maybe but you have no future here.. Lester knew the hardships of being a carnie, with little pay and long hours.. Well, I went home and back to school ... I completed Vocational technical school for building trades, I wrestled winning 17 lost one tied one... I ran track and got my highschool letter.. I graduated HS and went on to be a house carpenter (framer) and a large format photographer... Looking back, I truely think Lester saved my life by leading me in the right direction.. I had a lot of respect for Lester and so his opinion mean't something... I hope this movie don't exagerate and put Lester in a bad light ..! He doesn't deserve it..! I know God bless you Lester I will never forget you..!

Oh, and Lester had dark hair from what I remember... not red

I was about 15 years old whe I read the basement. It was by accident that I was reading that book. I was a freshman in high school and I had to do an essay on child abuse. After searching news articals for what seemed like forever. I found one about a 16 year old girl that was tortured in 1965. At the time I lived in the fountin square area however my sister lived on New York street. My mom liked always would ask me how school was going and I told her about my essay. Then she seen the book on my bed and fliped out. Come to find out my mother was friends with Sylvia. She remembered everything that happend. She was told many times that summer that Sylvia had run away. My mother heard the noises comming from inside the house. I always wondered why my mother wouldn't visit my older sister and her 2 grandchildren when they lived on New York. Now I know why. I have been waiting for this movie to come out. I have looked everywhere for information. I have been told several times that it will not be released in the U.S.. If there is anyone that can give me any info on this movie please let me know.

In case you don't already know, An American Crime is scheduled to air on Showtime on May 10, 2008 and released on DVD in May or June of the same year. Any other questions, email me: kingpen30@hotmail.com

This movie is now showing on SHOWTIME.

I just saw the movie An American Crime on showtime and I watched it twice. I live in Louisville, Kentucky south of Indianpolis and Id never heard this story before. I too am interested in knowing what happened with the rest of the bunch including Paula. I would be grateful to correspond with anyone who knows more about this. From what research I've read this movie is 'tame' compared to the horrors that were perpetrated on Sylvia and jenny. servusmariaen@aol.com

vicki, thanks for the response. I've been trying to research as much about this case as possible online and it's from my research that I've come across the more gory details of the crime against this young girl. I can imagine how shocking it must have been in the 60s. I keep thinking this all happened the year I was born (1966) and shortly before. If anything I think its given me a more heightened sense of awareness to being alert to possible situations around me. I think what was most heart breaking to me is thinking that perhaps this all could have been avoided. I can't imagine letting my children stay with someone I barely knew even though I don't wish to sit in judgement of her parents. Someone on here wrote that Gertrude was once their babysitter. I wonder what that was like? Gertrude was a very ill person. She needed to have been institutionalized. It makes me wonder what kind of childhood she had to be so callous and evil? The most bizarre thing to me was watching them go to church week after week and say grace etc. and then do such heinous things. I would have preferred that they stuck as close to the real details as possible in the movie if for anything as you say to do Sylvia justice.

I watched this movie in its entirety for the first time on monday nite and I havent been able to get this girl's face out of my head ,my heart or my soul. I dont want to be judgemental but part of me blames the parents a big part. Who the hell leaves their kids with someone they dont know and especially to live with them. I guess that was the biggest surprise of all. As far as the person that said they worked for lester likens , the time frame you gave was 10 years after the fact so alot can change in that time frame. Not that it matters. I as well would like to find out what happened to those other sons of b**** that did this to sylvia. It really pissed me off that gertrude got out after 20 years wth happened to life sentence. Shows that the human life is worth nothing to some people and especially the fact it was a child. Good thing Im not God is all I can say. Oh and that b*** paula give me five min in a room with her I would tie her ass up and do some of the same things that were done to sylvia ... I would like to know what happened to her as well. ANy info email flcherrybomb@aol.com

Let's remember Sylvia ...

btw the pictures that I have seen in the newspaper articles lester likens was not a short man and the fact weither he drank or not really doesnt matter. Another thing those commenting about how the movie producer should've stuck to the details...the onlyr eal thing o'haver had to go on was the court transcripts and I think he did a pretty awesome job. Noone really knows what happened except sylvia herself and of course those involved and they sure arent gonna offer more details than what were written in the court transcripts. Nuff said about that.

Anon,,,, If you were a man living in the state of Indiana and you were fighting for custody of your child because the mother of your child married a convicted child molester... You might understand my point of view... I never did gain custody of my , ( at the time) 6 year old girl because Judge James Payne didn't think my daughter was in danger of being molested.. Instead we were all evaluated by women social workers and all they did was try to white wash the convicted child molester's crime.. The social worker's told us that the 12 year old girl he molested was a run-away and a street person.. So I guess she had it comming.? Ok , your turn to comment

Also I hope you never have to feel the pain & fear I felt and the utter disgust when a social worker ( probably not a mother, I HOPE NOT !) tell me that a 12 yr. old girl deserved to be raped because she was homeless..

hi stephen Its not only the state of indiana but In florida I have gone through almost the same exact thing you did. Ify ou would be interested in chatting please email me at flcherrybomb@aol.com. I dont wanna go through the details on here. I am sorry for your experience. The fact that a social worker would say that gives me chills but it doesnt surprise me I have to say. They dont want to do anything to protect children until its too late. They want to see the ultimate proof.. Which is bs . All this stuff that happens to kids just like sylvia could've been prevented if the state would just do their job to the fullest but they wont theya re too worried about offending someone or getting sued. Unfortunately that is the country we live in.. Where the offenders have rights and victims have none.

Oh , and I also wanna mention that after I lost the court battle I contacted Mike Ahern, a local news man and left a message discribing my situation and he never returned my call..

For the most part you cant trust what the media says. Well I totally agree with you on exposing people who are supposed to be in charge of trying to help an dinstead they do the most damage yet they want to point the finger at the parent that is trying to get help for the abused child. I was told in a cout of law that I was just a vindictive ex wife which was totally not the case because up until the time of the incident things were going fine. I almost lost cu stody of my daughter becasue I reported the incident to child services and was trying to protect her. I had a judge in my case that was mor concerned with his christmas vacation than he was trying to protect my daughter. My daughter had stated things to a psychologist and we even had proof a handwritten letter from the psychologist the judge looked at me and said this isnt proof I almsot fell out of my chair. Thatj ust goes to show you are better off to take the law in your hands than you are to t rust the judicial system cause it sucks!.... Luckily for my daughter things ahve been fine for the last 3 years thats only cause she is old enough to tell ... And we didnt have real proof so they say... I guarantee if it happens again I wont stop until ig et what I want even if it means going and sitting on the governor's doorsteps in the state of florida.

Melissa,,, Thats ok I know exactly what you mean and sorry if I snapped at you... You know whats funny is the I first became away of the sylvia Likens case when my sister had the book The Indiana Torture Slaying she was reading for a school project.. I was maybe 12 at that time. When I turned 14 in 1974 I met Lester Likens and worked for him never to once the whole time I knew Lester did I ever connect him with the story in the book my sister did an esa on.. I met Lee and Jeremey Shoemaker and went to school with I never knew they were Sylvia's nephew's... I never made the connection why we walked wide of the Hobb's house on 5th street in Beech Grove when the Hightlburger's and myself delivered papers at 3:00 am.. I never made the connection that Darlieen Mcguire lived at 6th. and Alton in Beech Grove right down the street.. She was the girl that introduced Sylvia to Paula.. I was unaware of all these untill one day I remembered Sylvia but only in the context of that book of my sister's ... Let me just say that when my sister told me all about Sylvia when I was 12 I can remember being horrified by it but being a 12 yr. old boy I quickly forgot.. Anyway,,, when I found the internet I found the information ... Everything that I have recalled is of the best of my ability and I may remember sketchy because I was 14 and I'm now 48 where Lester is conserned.... Let me just ask a question to anyone out there that knows Lester to come forward and let me know if my memory fails me ...

I think the ppl in her family should deffinitly be kept track of yes... Just for safty sake if any..

lmao at what jt said you are kidding me right... A little girl is dead and you are worried about punctuation skills my god what are you the grammar police hehehe.

lol ... yeah i know i visited chicago once and never intend on going back. Its a dirty nasty city. I can only imagine, have never heard good things about that city.

you have been all over sounds like... You are right about that , there are jerks all over the world . I live in florida and I have to say the town I live in used to be such a small friendly town but over time people have gotten into a rush and just arent very courteous anymore. Being from the south you just expect it here but not so. I think mainly cause so many tourists have invaded us lol.. but if it werent for tourists our economy would be worse than what it is in certain parts of fl. Well I know that chicaog is just one part of illinois and Im sure the other parts are really beautiful.

God gave us free will to do as we wish... Some wish to just live Some choose the darker road... I think Sylvia and Saint Stephen have much in common... They both died a horrible death and the son thats sit's to the right stood to greet them as they rose to heaven... I think Sylvia was no less then a Maytr and a Saint... Her story is like non other.. Once you know about Sylvia you never forget her

Kathleen,, If you look up the meaning of Martyr you'll see that it also means : one word: "victim" Was Sylvia not a victim..? Sylvia lived in the days of black & white TV with only 4 channels if you were lucky.. Sylvia wasn't exposed to the things teens are exposed to these days... Sylvia lived in innocent times,,, I know I was alive at the time.. Sylvia got saved at a local church while she was in the house on NY and just 3 months later she'd be dead...

Okay! Under the influence is not what I meant, but how about this: When in company, an individual's ways of action always correspond to those of a person belonging a cultural level clearly below the individual's own. This seems to be true disregarding of the way the cultural level was achieved (by formal education or on the person's own steam). Does that ring a bell? As to innocent times - less flooded by the media, sure, and with a lot less of knowledge, but how about Vietnam? And the violent death of President Kennedy? Both were amply covered in print media and cinema news and TV, thus happening right before young people's and children's eyes. Has there ever been an era that was truly innocent?

I'd also like to add.. I think when the ordeal started Sylvia's tormentor's thought if what they were doing was that bad Sylvia would just leave ... When Sylvia didn't leave or try to get help the crowd may have thought she liked her treatment and might have contributed to her prolonged condition.. We do know that close to the end Sylvia did try to escape and this was suspected that she might try is why she was tied up in the basement... What baffles me is that Gertrude was 38 yrs. old with no criminal record and non of these kids had any criminal record either... Why did they all one day decide to become criminals...? Gertrude had many borders along the way and never laid a hand on them... Why Sylvia..? Why

Hello Kathleen,, I think evil came in the form of cough syrup to Gertrude... I know that if you drink enough (only 4 ounces) you can experiance a bad trip for a full day..Also causes halucination and severe paranoia Also, they described Gertrude as a haggardy woman ,,sometimes looking young and other times she'd look totally different (elderly) You can whitness it for yourself by veiewing all the photos taken of her... I think all those kids knew Gertrude was messed up ... would be something she couldn't hide on her best day.. But who knows For all those involved to go so long and never break the hold of these hedious ideas ... Not one kid turned away and said," enough".. Sylvia was treated not like a human but an object, a toy , a rag doll... How can one do this for any length of time before realizing the insanity they have become involved in and tell authorities? I agree with what you say about kids on a playground and the "fear is real" is why the victim runs like hell... usually

Hello Kathleen,, Yes, cough syrup was over the counter in those days ... Erbecker didn't use it because it couldn't be proven on paper.. Is my guess.. If Gertrude wasn't tripping from it she would have been detoxing from it's absence.. I think Randy Leper smiled to disguise his fear which is considered a normal reaction with some people.. Next time your at a scary movie and something bad happens look around and you'll see this behavior in action... Steve

Hi, Steve, yes, he was a public defender and quite overworked, too. At the same time, very skilled - and terribly vain, don't you think so? In almost every famous case, you have one lawyer or an attorney doing war dances. Of course, if your case is desperate ... You are right about Leper and probably right about this being a common behaviour, but I 've seen a lot of it at some time or other, and I think there's more to it than just fear. Leper behaved like this each time he had to admit to something. Grinning, rolling his eyes upwards - that's mocking. And there is something behind it I don't care for. Have a nice day, Kathleen

Hi, Steve, the bit I know about post-Banishewski-trial Randy is from net blogs by people from Indianapolis. They don't say anything about him, too, finding God, on the contrary, Sylvias death somehow seems to have caught up with him. While he didn't have more problems with the law as Hubbard did, he had a hard time in the town - couldn't keep a job for more than a few days, couldn't find a partner, couldn't even keep an appartment without soon getting thrown out and was generally disliked in Indianapolis. Some bloggers hinted that people indeed couldn't stomach his behaviour in court. I guess, one doesn't hear so much about him because it was finally decided not to charge him so he was like any other person with rights to their privacy etc. I know there was that motion that his intelligence be tested because someone was afraid about his validity as witness. I don't think anything ever came of it, but these doubts may have been the reason for any idea of charging him being dropped.

I just recently discovered that this film was made, although I have long been aware of "The Basement", even having at one time spoken with Kate Millett herself about the subject. My husband is the youngest of Gertrude's children, Dennis Lee Wright Jr., the son she had with Dennis Wright before he abandoned her. He grew up in Anderson IN with a different name and not knowing about his past, other than the fact that his birth mother was a murderer. He only discovered the story once he became an adult. After several years of extreme ups and downs, he now knows he is manic depressive - bi-polar, and it is almost certain that Gertrude also had the same disease. I am not condoning what happened, by ANY stretch of the imagination, but bipolar disorder is a very puzzling disease. It is just a shame that so many lives were destroyed - of course Sylvia herself, but no one mentions the younger children that really could not be held culpable. What ever happened to Dennis Lee Wright, my husband's birth father? It is always said that he abandoned Gertrude, but has no one ever heard anything on his whereabouts?

Kathleen: Thanks very much for your kind comments. No, my husband had not heard of Gertrude Baniszewski before he discovered the truth. When he was 20 years old he was in a very bad motorcylce accident and at that time asked his adopted mother for the truth, and she gave him limited information. We didn't search out more until many years later, after we were married and our son was born. By that time, Gertrude had already died. My husband was unable to ever read either "The Basement" or "Indiana Torture Slayings", but I relayed portions of it to him as he could handle it. He did not discover he was bipolar until he entered rehab for drinking. Strangely enough, I come from a family myself with bipolar disorder, both my mother and grandfather were manic-depressive, but yet I could not see it in my own husband. Yes, usually there is a trigger - and most times bipolar people "self-medicate" with alcohol and drugs. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Unfortunately, sometimes the prescription drugs are worse than the disease itself; and causes many side effects that also disrupt ones life. I'd like to say that everything has gone peachy since then for my husband, but not so much. He is a tortured soul, and even though he was just an infant at the time of what happened to poor Sylvia, he feels the blame. He remembers his time at the orphanage, which was where he went right after the crime was commited, and he was only there only for a few months before being place in a foster home, so actually his memory goes almost to when it all happened, which is more than a little eerie.

Kathe: this sounds as if bipolar disorder can have many faces. Not just because you didn’t recognize it. If your husband was first diagnosed when in treatment for something connected but in itself, dif-ferent, well, it could just as well have gone undetected for a while longer. I also get the impression that treatment is mainly or even entirely medication, i. e. chemistry. Since it’s caused by a chemical imbalance, that is alright, but what strikes me as very disturbing is that so many people with disor-ders supposedly based on physical disfunction have biographies that would be amply enough to cause psychical problems. (I’ve done some research on Jürgen Bartsch, and many of the medical experts agree he was born with a sadistical inclination. Maybe - but the childhood he had just bog-gles your mind.) The image your comments evoke is actually heartbreaking: a child just 1 year old – if I remember this right – in an orphanage, completely confused, probably scared, too, and trying to understand why such a violent change has taken place in his life. And some children in that kind of situation end up believing THEY did something wrong and are being punished. And some go on from there punishing themselves. By means of a disorder? Why not? And you are right, that thing about the memory IS eerie. Especially because, despite his then so young age, these must be memo-ries linked to language. Since he can put them into words, right? So there must be memories of the other kind, too, which one cannot describe but which go back even further. Could feeling the blame, as you say he does – when in no way, but in absolutely no way, he could be for anything in this whole sad story – have something to do with that? It must be hard, very hard, for him and for you, and think you have been very brave. And, Steve: this is getting strange. First, there is your connection to Lester and Betty, then your connection to the Shoemaker’s boys and the Hobbs’ house (did his father move after his wife’s death?) and now this – and a lot of it, if I get you right, happening to you without your making the connection at the time. What is this with you and Sylvia? Or is it just because you grew up so close by? Write about it. A book, I mean, you were there in this place, at that time and you knew the at-mosphere – do something about it. Looks as if you were meant to, anyway.

Also,,, I know the story gets even more bizzare... I was also very good friends with Barb Sanders family, the social worker that went to the death house while Sylvia was there... I was friends with her sons Mike, Homer, and her daughter Debbie... They lived in a double on north 5th. Ave. Hobbs lived on south 5th. Ave. Anyway,, Mike had problems ,, kind of like mental issues he said brought on by the Likens incident He would even get violent yelling obsenities at his mother.. I would try my best to help calm him down by telling him his mother was a good person and she would have stopped the madness in a minute if she could have known... It was Homer Sanders that was one of my best friends in school ,,, we attended many a rock concert together .. The Sanders family moved closer to the inner city and I never seen them again

Kathleen: Yes, bipolar disorder is really tragic for the people who have it and their families. And I agree, what happened to my husband is truly heartbreaking. Last night he commented that God must have put him here to pay for the sins of his family. I tried to tell him that God would not do such a thing, and that he must have had a different reason. He also mentioned that he has a strange feeling that of all of his half-siblings, he feels a connection to Marie somehow, and thinks that perhaps she tended to him more than the others. However, he does not want to try to find her - he thinks that probably none of the kids liked him much because he did not have the same father, and it must have made it more tight financially once he was born, so the others probably resented him. He was taken in as a foster child by the family that would end up adopting him. His adopted mother also had some serious issues and was abusive to him. She would tell him he was a very bad evil boy who would end up like his real mother (for things like stealing cookies) and that they could always "send him back" at any time. "What did my real mom do?", he would ask. And she would scream back "I'm your real mom now". So he quit asking, but it didn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that she was probably a murderer or she wouldn't be in the penitentiary for life. At some point, in high school, one of his adopted sisters outed him as the murderer's son (however he did not know, and still didn't know who his "real" mom was") and he was basically ostracized. He has spent his life as a loner who is very mistrusting of everyone. Steve: I've picked up the phone maybe three times now to try to call Cliff Wright, but I chicken out every time. My husband isn't aware that I am putting comments on this blog (and I don't think he would be very happy about it either), and I'm a bit afraid of opening up this can of worms if this is indeed the brother of my husband's birth father. My husband often says that he so relates to Sylvia and he is haunted by her face, while his birth family are people he just doesn't get at all. I agree with Kathleen that it is very strange all of your connections to the Likens, Hobbs, etc. - even the incident when you and your brother got the ticket from John B. Do you know what happened to him, by the way?

Kathe,, I don't even know if he's still alive,,, maybe hard telling Kathleen,, Beech Grove is a suburb of sorts ,, it has it's own mayor and police hence John B. as a Beech Grove policeman.. Beech Grove,, in case no one knows is birthplace to the famous actor Steve Mcqueen which I was named after.. While we're on the subject of Steve's I couldn't help but notice Sylvia is buried next to several ppl with the last names Stevens and Stevenson... BTW,,, Ricky lived 2-3 doors down from the death house on Denny st. at time of crime and no he didn't seem like the torturing type

Kathleen,,, The thought of a book and the title you mentioned is an awesome idea and your right I probably should tell my story in book form... It would take many years to research and write a book especially for someone like me... I'm still inspired by the idea,,,,who knows

Kathe,, That is great..! A foundation in Sylvia 's honor she would be pleased.....

Hello Kathleen,,, It's quite fun sometimes to sit and think back at your life ,, so I think of the good times mostly .. I was really blessed to have so many good people around me ,, but then I guess maybe I planned it that way.. I surrounded myself with good people and it led me all through Sylvia's family ..! Why.? I may never know why.. Your question about the Hobb's boy isn't silly at all.. I may have thought the boy I seen seemed a bit troubled ... He sat in the backyard swing a lot by himself.. If anything I had a soft spot for him if he seemed a tad weird, I was just that way.. But at the time I really don't remember connecting him to Sylvia... More then likely I heard the story about " a girl " Sylvia is not a common name and difficult for a kid to remember .. I learned about(or at least first heard the name) Sylvia in 1974 at the age of 14... At the time I was going to the Hightlberger's down the street from the Hobbs' I was in 4-6 th grade which would have been 1968-1972.. I honestly can't say how I might have reacted If I'd known the full story of Sylvia and known Ricky (the guy in the thick rimmed glasses) had done what he'd done.. I doubt that I would have passed it off as just a mean streak even though at that young age we all seemed to possess one ... I think in those days about the worst story with mean boys might involve a cat but never a human being.. I wish I could remember more about Ricky but theres probably nothing more to say other then he was a basket case and kept to himself... Mr. Hobbs seemed very normal

Hi, Kathe, You sure do have a lot on your plate, I can only repeat what your friends say, I can’t imagine how you manage. I am glad, though, that your son is so highly functioning. Are we talking Asperger’s or has his schooling so far been so effective? The youngest son of a good friend is autistic (mainly speech development problems). As they live in another country, I don’t see him that often so I no-tice every small progress and I know that my colleagues in special pedagogics have done wonders for him. He is in an integrative school and has his own teacher for the whole of a school day . Not only he has been speaking for a long time now, he even is growing out that phase of saying exactly what he thinks. That did cause problems for a while. Of course, one needn’t be autistic to do this and it might not sound so wrong but with an autistic person this is not about being franc or outspo-ken but about making yourself vulnerable in a way – well, you will know this better than I do. Ac-tually, I’m quite sure that people who meet him for the first time would take some hours, or longer, to notice he is a bit different from his peers. As to the adoption, this is much what I thought. It looks as if up to the second trial – the verdict, I guess – Gertrude had hopes of getting out of prison, if not at once then after a manageable amount of time, and taking Dennis jr. back, not relinquishing her rights until she knew it wouldn’t happen that way. Whatever his adoptive mother said about it, this means Gertrude didn’t give him up until she felt she had too. If one keeps in mind that she couldn’t know who her youngest child was with, this is a much more motherly decision than a refusal to have him adopted would have been, and it must have caused her a lot of pain. People who see her as the devil in person – there are plenty on this blog and worse on others – will not like this but I never got the impression that she was such a bad mother. I know that either Shirley or Marie once said in an interview they had been afraid of her – well, yes, I guess so, it has often been stated that in this place and time all the children were used to physical punishment and what with the pressure she was under AND her own very likely disorder, she was bound to let fly now and then. Add to this that either daughter would have felt the blame and would have wished to find an excuse for herself. Still, I firmly believe what I always believed – that she loved all her children in the same way most mothers do. Hi, Stephen, thanks for answering my questions, that was sweet. Is a basket case someone quiet and remote? (English, as you’ll have noticed, is not my mother tongue.) It does make you wonder, how a man like Mr. Hobbs, an unobtrusive man as you say, handled this kind of thing, first realizing that his son had been part of a crime, and such an appalling one, then making headlines, then being photo-graphed himself, people staring at him in the street – and then the trial, and the verdict. Your com-ments suggest, though, that he had forgiven him – something Ricky himself probably never did. And if up to the time you were 14 you had not heard of the case, it can’t have been the subject for everybody to talk about any longer, although this was neighbourhood, more or less. Unless people didn’t talk to you about this because you were a boy? Because of the embarrassment, I mean – I remember one woman on another blog saying she grew up in the vicinity and “had known about this all her life”, and there are Milletts comments about one of Sylvia’s former classmates and how she felt ASHAMED, of all things … By the way, I was quite surprised, too, that Sylvia is not a common name at your place,. I know and knew a lot of Sylvias and would rather have thought Jen-nifer and Diana to be rare names, at the time of their birth, that is, not today. Have a nice weekend, both of you, and take care.

Kathe, Is your son actually autistic or does he have Asperger's? The autistic are generally unable to attend regular school. I have a relative who has Asperger's, which they actually refer to as highly functioning autism. He's a nice guy and very smart, but a bit socially awkward. He is almost like the Rain Man. To everyone: Does anyone know anything about John Baniszewski, Sr? He is someone we never hear about. While he was made out to be a deadbeat dad in the movie and on some blogs, he did take in Stephanie after the murder trial. I know this from the Indiana Torture Slaying book. Furthermore, I also read in The Indiana Torture slaying that old Gertie was quite selfish: despite living in a rathole house with nary enough food for the kids, she bought herself a fashionable furniture set as the kids slept in one room on a ratty old mattress. I also saw on a blog, from someone who must have known the family, that JB Sr. always paid his child support. Also, why were the other children (besides Stephanie) placed in foster care despite having a dad that was around?

Hello ,,,, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with the new bedroom suite ,,,, Then you have to nail down a bedroom location which I am afraid the movie is spot on by portraying her on the couch as her bed. Besides,, she's is holding a kid hostage and was well aware of it,, which she indeed proves in the end.. The couch position in the livingroom would give her clear sight of the basement door and the upstairs door and the backdoor...

Stephen, this detailed information makes me assume that you have seen a floorplan of the ground floor, either of E. New York 3850 itself or of corresponding houses. If so, could you provide that somewhere - or just describe it? I always got the impression that from the front door you'd walk right into the kitchen. The couch G. slept on later - because she was unwell with asthma and the stairs were getting to much if she wanted to lie down during the day, I believe. Or was that just the reason she gave?

Hello Kathleen,,, I have been in the house several times... Walking through the door facing New York st. you find yourself in the livingroom and facing the up-stairs steps and a small closet to it's right.. To the left is a entry door consisiting of two pillars flanked by bookshelves and to the left is a fake fireplace on the wall.. Through the pillars you enter the diningroom and keep right you enter the kitchen.. As you enter the kitchen the basement door is on the right.. As you turn around and enter the livingroom and head up stairs there is a landing half way up ... Up-stairs you'll find three bedrooms and one bathroom w/ no tub... As you reach the top of steps your facing a bedroom and if you look left you see another bedroom and If you turn your head far to the right looking behind your position you will see a bedroom with blue walls and painted on clouds... This is where the police found Sylvia.. So, recap,,,, Your standing at top of strps facing south,,, one bedroom to right, one directly in front and one to the right and behind you with the bathroom directly to your right... The basement steps go like this... You enter by stepping down to a landing then you must turn left then down a couple steps to another landing,,then you must turn right and then it's a straight shot down 7 or so steps with a crude rail down both sides... " all original" according to crime scene photos. At the very bottom of the steps there is a small landing between the steps and the basement east wall..This landing sits right on the floor and is just simple construction of 2x4's on end decked in with 1/2" CDX plywood.. Each block in the basement walls has the name Davis block Co. printed on them... The ceiling apears to have had a hardboard nailed up to the floor joist but has all been torn down leaving just the tattltale nails used to hold it up.. As you turn to the left you will see a brick chimney flew painted with bright red,blue, and black paint. Next to it is a gas pipe that is no longer hooked up and it is bent in the middle with much of the paint rubbed off where the bend is... There is some old plumbing on the east wall where a sink had been ,,, above that is a sealed up window with a PBR beer can on sill plate... If you are standing on the bottom landing and look to the right you'll see the opening to the crawl space which goes under the rest of the house... There is a nail on the bottom of the stair rail with burn marks in the shape of an hourglass or the shape of a 3 turned in both directions... I did notice slice marks in the wood at the bottom of the steps that could have been made with a shovel or sharp knife.. Above the last step there is a dirty hand print on a dropped part of the ceiling as though someone was trying to stop themselves from falling... The whole time I was there I got the impression this was a crime scene that was very in tact considering it happened so many years ago.. Nothing has been done to remove anything

Hello Kathleen,,, The death house is boarded up as it is right now ... The house sits on the corner of Denny and New York st. The New York side ( both sides have a porch ) is the door entrance to 3850 which would be where the Silvia was.. The front of the house faces Denny st. and is the entrance to where the Vermillions lived.. This part is the part of the house with a crawl space under the house... As far as the hand print goes,, I think It's Sylvia's ... I was able to get a match by comparing the photo of Sylvia 's hands ( back cover of The Indiana Torture Slaying ) there is a crime scene photo of the torso and hands of Sylvia... Try to remember ,,, the house sat empty for 15 years (after 1965)and when it was rented out finally it didn't stay rented long by any one person... I was told by a former renter and she said the house was very creepy and she and her children wouldn't be there much longer.. The house right next door ,, on New York side has been torn down just this early spring... How did I feel while I was in the basement..?? Umm well ,,, I'm in the construction business and I generally look at a house with critiqual eyes .... While I was in the basement I must say I had a very paranoid feeling bordering on fear,,, I couldn't think of the house like a regular house because I was there for different reasons.. I couldn't stay there for any length of time without thinking about the crime and I can't see someone living there knowing the history.. I personally don't think the house is haunted by Sylvia's ghost but it may be haunted by something maybe just the memory I'm not sure.. As far as traffic of people going to the basement ,,, I don't think there has been much since 1965 Also I can tell you from my experiance as a remodeler and someone that has poured over crime scene photos ,,, this basement is in very original condition ,,, original steps and railing,, plaster on walls going down stairwell,, basement floor still exposed concrete,, floorjoist have slice marks from sharp object resembling a shovel blade,, the burn marks on handrail,, everything matches the crime scene photos from 1965... I was able to match certin marks on the handrail to the same marks in the crime scene photo ,, I have taken photos myself and everything matches up 100%.. The hand print is speculation but it matches up quite well to the crime scene photo as I mentioned.

Hello Kathe,,,, Your son wouldn't have a 50/50 chance ... The chance degrades over generations Fantastic to hear about Denny and what has so far transpired... I hope everything goes well.

Hi Ross: Yes, I have spoken with both Stephanie and Marie about many things, including life since 1965. All of the children had very hard lives; Stephanie fared the best as she was sent to live with family members. But the others - Marie, Shirley and James - were all in foster care and were treated very badly. Although their names were changed, everyone knew who they really were, and their foster families mistreated them, much the same as my husband's adopted family did to him. Stephanie and Marie both told me that Denny was very much loved by all of his siblings, and through the years they had often wondered about Denny and how his life was going, if he married, had children, etc. There were several false reports about where Denny was throughout the years, so I'm sure they were a bit skeptical when here I came, but once I confirmed who I was by providing Denny's birth date, we started exchanging photos and any doubts they may have had vanished. I have found both Stephanie and Marie to be genuine and caring women and they have welcomed me into their hearts. They had been praying over the years for God to bring their baby Denny back to them if and when He found it best. Regarding JB Sr., they told me that he passed away a few years ago, after a long illness (I'm sorry but I don't remember now what - but I'll find out again). There is some discord in the family among the siblings and Stephanie and Marie were kept away from JB Srs. funeral and I think there are still some ill feelings there. Stephanie seems to be one in the family who still finds something good to find in all of her siblings, and she says she loves them all. She loved both of her parents. She even found a way to forgive Gertrude. Marie is more hardened to life, I believe, and I don't think has quite made that leap. Stephanie has also told Shirley that they found Denny, but I haven't spoken to her yet. We're trying to take this slow, and not get emotionally overloaded. No word on anything about Paula or Jim knowing anything about Denny. I would imagine that since Shirley knows, that Paula must now too. I now have a different view of most of the kids now that I've heard some stories of how they treated Denny - even Paula. who would tailor words to songs for Denny, such as the Superman theme (it's Super Baby! able to leap from a crib in a single bound...) and the Lone Ranger theme. Strangely enough, Denny has always had a "thing" for Superman, which he passed down to our son (who is currently a Superman-everything "freak" - Smallville is currently his fave tv show). As a teen, Den resembled a young Christopher Reeve and when he wore glasses was referred to as Clark Kent. By saying that I have a different view of the kids now doesn't mean that I condoned what happened at all, but I think hearing some of the things I was told gives some insight as to how it could happen. I'll just say that all of these children had very hard lives, before and after 1965.

Forgot to ask you something, Kathe - you said once you had spoken to Kate Millett. Did she find you or did you find her? I take it this was long after "The Basement" came out? Greetings!

Hi Kathleen: I very much appreciate your kind words and thoughts for myself and my family. As for thinking that Denny probably does have Huntington's, I say this because many of the symptoms seem to be what he is experiencing. I've read that every case is different. I know about the genetic test, and we are scheduled to see a neurologist next week to discuss everything. One thing that Stephanie told me about Dennis Sr. was that he had an anger management problem, and he would explode and then he would be standing there looking confused as if he did not know what had happened or how he had gotten to that place. That sounds eerily similar to how my husband acts at times. Bipolar disorder may just be another thing he has, or maybe he started to have the emotional disturbances, etc. associated with Huntington's when he was diagnosed as bipolar. But I am thinking that bipolar disorder is just another ailment he may have, as from speaking with Stephanie there are some relatives in the family that have been diagnosed bipolar. Denny does also have some of the symptoms like loss of coordination, slurred speech (at times), jaw clenching, muscle contractions, etc. You're right; the cognitive and behavioral ones could mean anything, so I'm trying not to make too many assumptions without solid facts. But Denny proclaims himself "a knower" and believes that he must be dying. I am very nervous about the test and implications from the test such as possible discrimination for insurance. I did not know about women showing symptoms prior to menopause - I don't think there is a similar marker for men. I found Kate Millett back in the 90's when we first found out about both "The Basement" and "The Indiana Torture Slayings". At the time Denny was mostly concerned about finding out about his family health history as he was starting to have emotional problems and was continually being asked by health providers about his parents, etc. I called her on the telephone, told her who I was, and we spoke for a while. And to Kai: Thank you for acknowledging that my husband was only a baby and that he deserved a better life. I don't know about karma working out; I think my husband has had more than his share of grief and sadness in his life that he did not bring on himself. However, he does feel guilt for this travesty because this was his birth family. And I truly understand how people are and can be apathetic about the other children, at least the older ones. I don't really get how you can say that karma should get the younger ones though; if you had a mom like Gertrude telling you to do horrible things and you thought you would get her wrath if you didn't, do you know that you would take the high road? And keep in mind, I have never ever condoned what happened in the slightest. I really don't know about poster #49 having inside information about Paula and her kids; as I mentioned I haven't had any contact with Paula, only Stephanie and Marie, and we really haven't talked about Paula except as to how she reacted with Denny. But thank you for your kind words for my husband. I too hope he finds peace.

Kai: I am so sorry that you and your siblings were subjected to that type of abuse. I myself did not grow up in an abusive household, although my mother was also quite mentally unbalanced (also manic depressive/bipolar) and therefore not really there for me, and as an only child, I was forced to become self-sufficient early in life. It was not easy for me though - my mother tried to commit suicide several times, once driving the family car off the side of the freeway and several times taking multiple pills timed for when I would come home from school so I would get to find her with her eyes rolled back and have to call the paramedics to revive her. I was mostly talking about the very young ones such as Shirley and James, but obviously the system felt that only Paula and John Jr. should do time for what happened. Marie was never charged with anything. Stephanie's charges were dropped after some information was provided by some people, including Diana Likens for one I think, that was never made public. I in no way profess to be an expert on any of these facts nor am I trying to make any excuses for any of the participants in this heinous act. But of course, I look at it as this terrible occurance that destroyed an entire family for generations to come. And it is tragic for everyone concerned. And while I certainly understand your feelings about what they did and didn't deserve, I don't feel that I have any right to judge anyone. That is for God to do, not me.

I meant, of course, positive for you not positive in the sense that - you know what I mean! Sorry - sometimes it's quite obvious English is not my mother tongue.

Hi Kathleen: I hope you are right about the Huntington's. I very much appreciate your thoughts and prayers, so thank you. I'll let you know what happens. Today I received a picture of Dennis Sr. from the person who connected me with Stephanie. This is the first time I've seen a picture of Denny's dad. It is his high school picture when he was a Junior. I can totally see the resemblance - the eyes, mouth, ears and hs widow's peak are all his dad's! Stephanie said that all the Wrights were very good looking. While Denny's dad had passed away many years ago, the other siblings are still alive (w/Huntington's) so I'm curious as to what Dennis Sr.'s twin looked like through the years. Also strangely enough, since the pic of Dennis Sr. was from his high school yearbook, I went over to classmates.com and saw that Clifford Wright (I'm guessing this is the Clifford Wright that Steve mentioned as maybe being related) also attended that school (class of 1965), so perhaps he is indeed related. Maybe I will get the nerve to call his construction company after all... I don't think he is a sibling but perhaps a cousin or something... Have a nice weekend everyone.

Hi Steve: Dennis Sr.'s identical twin's name is Richard. I wonder if he is the same Richard Wright you mentioned. I had not heard of Raymond, but this is getting wild how intertwined everyone is. Dennis and Richard had two other siblings, a sister named Debbie and now I've forgotten the other brother's name, I know that both Stephanie and Marie at one time (long before I found it) had been posting on the imdb board, and I think also Paula and Jim did at times (although I don't think either Paula or Jim identified themselves), but looking at the posts it appears that many posters were very unkind to them and they left and deleted all of their posts. That's why at first when I went there I remarked that I had wished I had found the board prior to them leaving it. It was a fluke (or an act of God) that there were still posters over there who could point me in the right direction. And I agree with you and Kathleen - we all need our familes in times of trouble. We have been quite alone for a while and sometimes feel like an island upon ourselves. I have often wondered and worried about the future and what it may hold for my son, who may never be self-sufficient enough to be on his own. I myself am an only child, my father is deceased and my mother in a retirement home and not all there mentally, and with no other family and then Den not being close to his adopted family I thought there would be no one for my son once we are gone. Perhaps all of this is happening for a reason - well, many reasons, really - to understand what is happening to Denny, to bring closure to all of the questions of his past and reunite him with family that truly has loved him all along, and to provide emotional support to our son in his future.

Thanks to everyone for their comments, particularly Kathe, Kathleen, and Steve. I have been fascinated, in fact, almost obsessed with this case since watching American Crime. Since posting questions, I have pretty much sat back and watched Steve, Kathe, and Kathleen shed light on some of the issues surrounding this case. When I watched the movie, and then did further research into the case, I was outraged by what happened and felt a sense for the need of vengeance and retribution against Gertrude and the family involved. This is natural human nature. However, the more I look into things, and read from this board, the more I feel level headed about things and look at it more as a complex matter. We had an obviously mentally ill mother, whom had great weight and influence over her kids; all living in close quarters together in squalor, etc. Yeah, it does not justify anything that happened to Sylvia, but when I really think about it, it starts to mitigate it. While I intially thought of rage, and horror, and how much I generally hate bullies and child predators, etc.; I now think of how all around sad the situation is. Kathe's husbands life without a sense of identity; the obvious punishment via social stigma all the Baniszewski kids faced, etc. While I really wanted to see any of the kids over 10 burn (Johnny, Stephanie, Paula, Coy, Richard, etc) for what they did to Sylvia, I now think I am happy for the fact that the ones who did have a second chance at life made good on it. Johnny in an interview admitted he got off easy, took responsibility for his hideous actions, and commented on the Jonesboro case. From what I know, Stephanie teaches in a Christian school in FL and has had a completely normal life since. Marie, Jimmy, Shirley, etc. I just feel very sorry for, as they were too young to know any better, did not have any real moral culpability for what happened, yet obviously paid a very serious price in guilt by association. This is such a horrible thing, and as someone said, ruined several families for generations and generations. I have it set to have notifications on her via e-mail register with my e-mail account, and look forward to any further comments. Thanks again to the contributors - whenever I click on the link, I am very happy to learn something new. Kathe, in particular, I hope your husband finds some comfort and closure.

Hello,,,, I haven't seen the movie, just the trailer... I have read the book The Indiana Torture Slaying front to back without putting it down... My sister told me I wouldn't want to stop reading so I should pick a time when I had a few hours free.. Truthfully,,, It's the only book I've ever read... My thing has been magazine and never front to back ,, just kind of a reference thing... I don't know if I can watch the movie but I have not had an oppertunity as of yet.. Kathreen,,Ross I have just very limited knowlege and more questions then answers at this point. I'm curious to know the fine details like: Someone to tell me if I'm right or wrong,,, I think Gertrude thought in her own mind that she was right in all her actions hence is why ppl "not involved" were allowed to see Sylvia.. If Gertrude had thought she was in the wrong she would have never let that happen for fear she'd be turned in.. Also you could say that this re-enforced her denial ... Somehow Gertrude convinced everyone she was doing the right thing including herself ,,, untill enter Social worker,, Preist,, and confession note... The three signs of pure guilt..

Kathe, I just wanted to thank you for posting about your husband. In reading all the stories about the Sylvia Likens murder, it never mentions what happened to Denis. That's always kind of bugged me for some reason.. I've always wondered how life turned out for him and have even felt a wave of sympathy for him, probably more so then the rest of the children. Even though he was to young to remember any of it, no child, especially an infant, deserves to be apart of such unspeakable acts. I wish him nothing but peace and happiness for the rest of his life.

Don't get me wrong,,, he was doing his job and it's good to know that the police are watching out for your kids wellfare when you can't always yourself... I just wish that mentality was used to save Sylvia

Hello Kathe, Kathleen,,, Sorry I didn't mean to be so graphic when asking questions like that but I feel thats the only way I'd know for sure if I was talking to someone that was there... Not that I don't trust Kathe it's not that.. I'd just do that line of questioning so I myself would know 100% that the person I was talking with would be the real deal.. Tomorrow is the 26th of Oct.. remember Sylvia kind regards

I would just like for Steph to admit that her mother never once showed any remourse for her actions, and until the day she died felt victimized herself for the 17 years of bingo she missed out on. And as far as Steph forgiving her mother? how can she even forgive herself for at the age of 15 (not 11, as stated in a previous post) witnessing another human not just being beat up and picked on, but carved on, burned, branded, forced to eat poop, and starved to death without drawing the line and doing something about it. 15 years old is a young adult by 1965 standards, she was not a helpless kid. Paula and Steph being allowed to live full lives while Sylvia died such a painful death is exactly the reason I am an athiest. God?..................your fired.

Kaptain Kebo, As quoted by one of my favorite philosophers, Mr. Miyagi: "There are no bad students, only bad teachers. Teacher say, student do". Stephanie wasn't a helpless kid, but she still was just a kid doing what her mother told her to do. Where exactly have you learned your morals from? Your parents. Or whoever it was that raised you. You're parents are your foundation on learning right from wrong why things are right and why things are wrong. A child does what they are told to do. The only person there is to blame in this crime is Gertrude, and she herself wasn't in her right mind due to being very sick and fucked up on all those medications. And that's on top of being dirt poor and trying to sustain 7 kids plus 2 on top of them? Clearly it was a disaster waiting to happen! This doesn't in anyway justify what happened to poor Sylvia, but hating the children for what they did is not only close minded and immoral, but childish.

Rebecca, First off, being dirt poor is no excuse for forcing a child to drink urine and to be branded with a hot metal hook, nor is being on medication or having a bunch of kids. If this were the case about thirty percent of the planet would be on the brink of child torture/murder. Alao, there is a certain level of insanity/intensity that when it occurs (putting cigarettes out on and forcing someone to eat shit) will trigger a mechanism within a person to do what is right thing and overide their fucked up mom and get a second opinion, or get help. This is not the result of morals instilled within us by our parents but survival instincts we are born with. For you to refer to Paula (who is as much to blame as Gertie, as is Coy and Richard and to some extent Stessi) as a helpless child is beyond childish. I believe that you are sick Rebecca and somehow derive some pleasure out of the fact that the B's all got away with this crap. I know that at 15 yrs. old I never would have allowed this to happen, not because of my folks mad parenting skills but because I am of the human species and was born with instincts. Paula and Steph can rot in hell with Gertie, Coy, Richard and John Jr. But until they die they deserve to be constantly reminded of how they tortured Sylvia, and if you call that a fate worse than death I suggest you take a look at Sylvia's autopsy photos and re-think that one.

LMFAO!! Wow. That has to be the most closed minded, black and white thinking I've come across in a LONG time! Did you even stop to actually let my words penetrate that thick skull of yours, or was it too difficult a task to handle? Never the less, I'll answer you piece by piece to avoid confusion. "Rebecca, First off, being dirt poor is no excuse for forcing a child to drink urine and to be branded with a hot metal hook, nor is being on medication or having a bunch of kids. If this were the case about thirty percent of the planet would be on the brink of child torture/murder." You've lived a pretty sheltered life, haven't you? Sylvia's murder isn't the first to of happened in this fashion, and it sure as fuck won't be the last. Go read some crimelibrary.com and you'll see just what i'm talking about. There is a LOT more to it then just being dirt poor, sweetheart. Poverty is a very highly stressful thing for any individual to endure. It's extremely taxing on the mind and body, and can drag ANYONE down with it. Most individuals are able to cope with poverty, if they don't fall into a deep depression. But Gertie was never a very mentally stabled individual to begin with. She never should of agreed to take in Sylvia and Jenny, and those other kids should of gone into foster homes long before Sylvia came along. You know who I blame more then anyone else in this matter? Sylvia's parents. "Alao, there is a certain level of insanity/intensity that when it occurs (putting cigarettes out on and forcing someone to eat shit) will trigger a mechanism within a person to do what is right thing and overide their fucked up mom and get a second opinion, or get help." lol There's that black and white thinking that I "adore" about you. Let's stop for a second and step outside of our thick spoiled brat minds, shall we? Little Billy is 2 years old and loves his parents just as much as any child does. He looks to his mother and father to teach him the ways of the world because they are all he knows. One day little Billy is drinking a soda and spills it. His mother comes up and beats him senseless and tells him that she's doing it to "teach him a lesson" on being careful. This continues everytime Billy does something "careless". When little Billy is 5, his little sister, who's 2, knocks something over. Because Billy's mom has drilled it in his head to be the "responsible older sibling", what does he do? He goes over and hits his sister to teach her a lesson on being careful. This has to be the right thing, because it's what his mother did to him. Besides, mama seems pleased with this. She's sitting over on the couch smiling and telling him "good boy". Now it's only a matter of time before billy starts doing this to younger children at school, and because mom and dad never taught him how to control his anger, his "lesson teaching" only get's more and more violent and twisted by the day. But it's okay, because mommy says it is. One day he shoves a kid down a flight of stairs for back talking to him and he ends up in a juvenile detention, the end. Now is this Billy's fault? To some degree. He made that conscious decision, no one else. But he did it because that's what his mother taught him to be right. In his world, everything is ass backwards. Right is wrong and wrong is right. Can you imagine looking back on your life and finding out that everything you were taught was wrong? It's a pretty scary concept, but one that many children end up facing later in life, usually after they've committed some horrid crime. Think this is wrong? Go brush up on your child psychology. "This is not the result of morals instilled within us by our parents but survival instincts we are born with." You want to talk about human instincts? Let's talk about that disgusting primitive urge that lays within us all that involves inflicting pain on those weaker then us. We all have it, it's there, and if you deny having never in your life felt it, even just a small inclination of it, then you're a liar. Humans love power, and they love to feel powerful. Fortunately most people are mentally stable enough to either ignore this urge all together or control it. That's the beauty of being human, is having the gift of REASON because we were TAUGHT at a young age that inflicting pain on others is WRONG! Take all that away and what happens? You're no different then the animals. "For you to refer to Paula (who is as much to blame as Gertie, as is Coy and Richard and to some extent Stessi) as a helpless child is beyond childish." Uh, first off, I was talking about Stephanie, because that's you you first referred to. And I'm pretty sure I said "Stephanie wasn't a helpless kid, but she still was just a kid doing what her mother told her to do" meaning while Stephanie (or Paula) were far from innocent children, they WERE STILL CHILDREN. Children doing as their mother told them to because they thought they were teaching Sylvia a lesson. End of story, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I don't know if the whole children do as they're taught thing has sunk into you're head yet, but that's exactly what happened here. And if you can't sit back and understand that or even TRY to understand that, then you're the one that's beyond childish. "I believe that you are sick Rebecca and somehow derive some pleasure out of the fact that the B's all got away with this crap." AWWW!! That's so cute! I pissed you off! Let me guess...you're 20, right? I remember having that same naive ego about how the world works too! Don't worry, you'll grow out of that someday. But first would you like to explain to me how it is I'm sick? Because I see a situation for EXACTLY how it was? Because looking at a situation from the point of view of those that caused it doesn't automatically make you side with them. What happened to Sylvia never should of happened, and I feel a great sympathy for her family and friends. I think Gertie got what was coming to her when she was locked away and only wish she could have been in prison longer. BUT I can see how it happened, and not by automatically jumping to the "THAT WOMEN AND THOSE KIDS ARE PURE EVIL END OF STORY" excuse. No one is born evil. Something brings it on, and if you're not mentally strong enough to fight it, then it get's worse and worse overtime until it spirals out of control. I'm sure Gertie had her moments when she was a good person as well as a good mother, even if only for a minute. The entire thing is horribly sad. "I know that at 15 yrs. old I never would have allowed this to happen, not because of my folks mad parenting skills but because I am of the human species and was born with instincts." lol I'm pretty sure I already answered this. Again, a child's morale can be warped if not brought up the right way. Child psychology, etc. "Paula and Steph can rot in hell with Gertie, Coy, Richard and John Jr. " And you say I take pleasure in other people's pain? "But until they die they deserve to be constantly reminded of how they tortured Sylvia" I agree "and if you call that a fate worse than death I suggest you take a look at Sylvia's autopsy photos and re-think that one." Sylvia will never have to experience pain again. Go through your life without a soul to offer love and forgiveness and see if it's worth living.

You are obviously Steph or somebody close to the Baniscewski/Blake torture clan. You stated how rough their (your) lives have been, why don't you just fess up to who you are and what your connection is and I will do the same. Steph (you) was old enough to blow Coy Hubbard and smoke cigarettes, you could have, and should have saved Sylvia. Stop making excuses for yourself under a fake name. You were/are pathetic scum and should be in jail.

How do you know that their lives have been rough since the crime? How do you know that they are ridiculed? They have changed there names and moved to other States. You seem to know who you are defending. Does your boyfriend also support you in forgiving people for murder?

Do some research! There have been interviews and reports given by the children about how their lives have been since the murders. You don't need to know their new names to find them! My boyfriend supports me in not being a narrow minded twit and being able to look at something from a different prospective.

More fantasy? I challenge you to produce the location of ANY reports or interviews the kids have given about their lives since they killed Sylvia....ANY, with the exception of 1 dead John Jr. NOBODY has given reports....interviews? reports?....to who? you are so full of shit. Yeah, Paula talks to the press all the time. If you can't be honest about your sources go away.

"Yeah, Paula talks to the press all the time." You just answered part of your own question, dumbass. And you CHALLENGE me!? ROFL!! You should change your name from Kaptain Kebo to Kaptain Bebo... as in Bebo the clown!

Paula has not spoken to the press, I know these things. Stop lying, yes, to avoid confusion I CHALLENGE YOU. Or did she give a secret interview that nobody knows about except you and your boyfriend when you are trying to manufacture legit sources for all the bullshit you have been spewing about everyboy's 'rough lives'. You know nothing about anybodys lives and certainly not thru any 'reports and interviews' (with the possible exception of that b.s. that John Jr. was spewing some years back. Rebecca, are you aware that Gertie NEVER felt any remourse for Sylvias death?..............."do some research, get the f outaa here" interviews and reports on how their lives have been since they killed Sylvia, you are a blatant liar, they do not exist.

LIAR, they do not exist. probably a good time to get tired and go to sleep, liar. It is just your sensitive nature to assume that the lives of Paula and Stessi have been rough and then try to back it up with fantasy bullshit. liar "recap on the interviews" what interviews????

Geez Becca i'm all googled out. Lots of info but none of the 'reports and interviews about their lives since they killed Sylvia' you spoke of. Are you sure you weren't just kidding about these 'reports and interviews' Becca???? which leads to, how do you know anything about Paula and Stessi's lives since they left East New York St.??

Uhhh, except I'm not lying. I just spent like 20 minutes looking for them and can't seem to find them either. Oh well. They were there at one point. I'll look again in the morning. "but really, be more honest with your boyfriend then you are with people on the internet or your relationship will go nowhere, as he will not be able to trust you any more than I can, all because you lied to me" What are you Doctor Phil? I've been living with my boyfriend for 5 years now. I'm pretty sure I don't need some random person from the internet (who knows NOTHING about myself, my boyfriend, or our relationship) telling me how to keep my relationship intact. "maybe someday you will all be happy together at the big bingo game in the sky" I hate bingo.

And by the way, Rebecca, I' m impressed at the patience and levelheadedness you kept throughout this tiring and upsetting dialogue. I would have given up.

"Uhhh, except I'm not lying. I just spent like 20 minutes looking for them and can't seem to find them either. Oh well. They were there at one point." LOL What bullshit. I guess this is what KK was talking about when he said lies lead to more lies. The fact of the matter is that these "children" were old enough to know right from wrong no matter what their mother taught them. They are directly responsible for the horrible death of Sylvia Likens. Why do you so vigorously defend them? What is your connection to these people?

rebecca - By the time a "child" is 15 years old they have had many outside influences, not just their parents. You honestly believe that the only way a person learns that violence is wrong is through their parents? Society (friends, school, church, etc.) also play a part in showing a person right from wrong. Your "but she didn't know any better!" excuse doesn't hold water.

You know what? I've repeated myself over and over and over again and NOTHING I've said seems to be sinking in. I'll say it one more time and then I'm done with the argument, because I'm obviously arguing with kids....that or very, very under developed adults. A parent is like God in the eyes of a child. Even at the age of 16, you're brain is still growing and developing (and yes, that includes back in 1965). Yes, you do learn from society, but it's your PARENTS that build that foundation of what's right and wrong. I can tell you right now that I've learned more from my mother about life and what's right and wrong then society EVER could have taught me! In closing, all I have to say about the Baniszewski children learning from society is this: "A twelve-year-old girl named Judy Duke described some of the goings-on to her mother while Mrs. Duke was washing dishes. "They were beating and kicking Sylvia something terrible," the girl reported. "Oh, well, they're just punishing her, aren't they?" Mrs. Duke asked rhetorically." "The two neighbors sat around a table and drank coffee while kids yelled at each other and baby Dennis fussed and cried. Vermillion noticed a slim, pretty but timid and nervous- looking girl who had a black eye. "That's Sylvia," sighed Gertrude. Paula Baniszewski added, "I gave her the black eye." Just before making this boast, however, Paula filled a glass with hot water and threw it at Sylvia. Understandably, Phyllis Vermillion decided to look elsewhere for a babysitter. Less understandably, she did not report what she had seen and heard to the authorities. Early in October, Vermillion paid another social call to the large family next door. Again she saw Sylvia, who looked dazed, even zombified, and who had another black eye plus a swollen lip. "I beat her up," Paula readily volunteered. Later, Paula began hitting the listless girl with a belt. Again Phyllis Vermillion left the house without believing she had seen something the police ought to know about. If a supposedly normal, responsible adult could not recognize these actions as criminal, why should anyone expect an untutored teenager like Sylvia to be able to do so?" "One neighbor heard and saw the beatings, but turned away and told his wife "I think it's best we not get involved" Yeah, that sounds like a AWESOME neighborhood to instill some good strong morals into America's youth! Oh wait, maybe not. Sorry, you fail!

Rebecca - You never did answer my questions regarding your vehement defense of these murderers or what your connection is to them. Your anecdote proves nothing other than there are others to blame for Sylvia's death. Your assertion that a 16 year-old wouldn't have the capacity to understand extreme violence is wrong unless their parents told them so is simply absurd. Stephanie knew what was going on was wrong. She chose not to tell for a number of reasons. Not knowing torture is wrong was not one of them.

"I hope you can staighten yourself out." And I hope you can finally make it past the 8th grade!

Kaptain Kebo: If you don't mind me asking, what is your connection to the incident? In all honesty, I post on this blog and frequently read it to learn more about the case. Rebecca, in fairness, it does sound as though you have some connection. I'm not saying this to bicker, just saying it to show things from my perspective. Let's try to keep things civil. We had a nice dialogue going for a while here.

Paula is in Bedford, Iowa

Didn't have to find it, I already knew.

Do you know anything else about her? I hope she's miserable.

By the way the breaking of the will started with Gertrude beating Sylvia and Jenny on a regular basis. It was Gertrude ,, "the sick woman" bat left then right.. And by God you kids had better listen to me!

Wow; I can't believe what's been going on here. I certainly did not mean to incite such hatred, etc. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions; we are just expressing ours here, but as Kathleen mentioned several posts up, we have all been discussing politely. I, like Stephen, have noticed Kaptain Kebo on other blogs and while some of his comments ring similarly, they were never so hostile previously. I certainly understand the outrage that people feel about this case, but it is not necessary to attack the posters that may have sympathetic feelings for some of the people involved. One can get across their opinions without attacking others. I think I've said it before, there is no black and white here but many shades of gray, and it is much more complex than it appears at first. Perhaps some people, like KK, can only see things in b&w. I have appreciated the level headed comments regarding this case made by Kathleen, Stephen and Rebecca. Stephen, by the way, do you doubt I am really married to baby Denny? Of course, I have no reason to lie to anyone. I wanted to prove it when I was being connected to Stephanie, because over the years there were false reports of where and who baby Dennis was. I was able to prove it by providing his birth date, which was written on the back of a picture that Stephanie had of Denny when he was just 2 days old. Once I provided that, they knew I was who I said I was. Denny has his first birth certificate with his original name and the name of his birth parents, Gertrude (it listed Wright as the last name) and Dennis Lee Wright. I could certainly send you a copy somehow to confirm that if you want. I knew that identifying myself on this blog could lead to horrible things said to myself and my husband. Some people are so narrow-minded that they believe that even the baby should be blamed. I've seen comments on other blogs hoping that even the children of those involved should be hounded for the rest of their lives. That is just sad. And Kaptain Kebo, I'd like to address you about something. You said you wanted Stephanie to admit that she never showed any remorse, and how could she forgive herself. She did actually try to save Sylvia. What is not known and was never in any publication, is that Stephanie actually had epilepsy and was having "time losses" when she had seizures. The phenobarbitol that Gertrude is reported taking was actually Stephanie's. Gertrude did not tell Stephanie that she had epilepsy, so she didn't know why whe was taking the phenobarbitol - I forgot what they told her it was for. In any event, Stephanie was not that aware of what was going on. She was Sylvia's friend. She told Sylvia to tell her if anything got real bad, and Sylvia never did. The week before she died, Stephanie tried calling the authorities twice. Once they came when she was in a seizure so she was not even aware they had come; the other time Gertrude interceded. I actually feel bad providing this information on this blog because Stephanie herself told me this, and I have not seen it anywhere else. I believe her. I have seen those mocking her Christianity saying that she didn't find Christ until after Sylvia died. But Stephanie told me she always attended church. It was Gertrude who did not attend church. And Marie told me it was she that tried to help Sylvia escape, and that Paula beat her pretty badly for that. They were all scared of Paula; she was like Gertrude's extended hand. Apparently, Gertrude and Paula were alone with Sylvia a lot of the time, which is never mentioned, when the rest of the kids were at school, so who knows what they were doing then. And unfortunately, my husband was there too for this to be in his subconscious (sp?), to haunt him in his adult life.

Again, here we go making excuses for people. Steph told Sylvia to 'tell her if things got really bad 'and she never told her. It reminds me of the scene in 'Walk Hard, The Dewey Cox Story' where Nate say's "Gee Dewey, I'm cut in half pretty bad". Maybe when Sylvia's level of pain reached the point where she could only mutter and moan, that was the hint to do something. Remember, Sylvia may have been Stephs friend, but Coy was Stephs Boyfriend. Sorry to rain on everyones parade but the fact is Steph is a liar and should have been convicted as an accomplice to murder. Paula should still be locked up.

Listen, Kaptain Kebo, I've already many times said I am NOT making excuses for anyone. But what about the kids telling many adults about the situation and it was ignored do you just not get? The police came twice that week; and were sent away when Gertrude interceded. I don't believe that Stephanie is a liar. The case against her was dropped largely due to witness testimony, primarily Sylvia's own sister Diana, and the information was sealed. The reason the case was dropped was because they didn't have a case. And while I am no fan of Paula, by any means, according to the state of Indiana, she paid her debt to society. Who made you judge and jury? I know I'm not.

Well said, Kathe

Just wanted to say that myself and a couple of others are the 'minorities' on this forum, and yes when it comes to torturing other humans I am the first to admit that I pretty much am of the 'Black and White' mentality. I don't have any compassion or tolerance for people turning perpetrators into victims. But I must sat that many of you have some amazing insight into this crime and are very intelligent in how you communicate. Stephen's 'couldn't' theory is absolutely amazing and pretty much sums it up as far as any explanation goes. Kathleen has made some wonderful observations as well. And Kathe, your story is amazing, I wish you and your husband the best of health and good fortune as he truly is a victim of this crime and is fortunate to have somebody as supportive and wise as you in his life at this time. I do not want to further disrupt this forum by repeating my negative banter about people getting off easy and all arouind lack of remourse, so I will shut up and continue to read what you guys have to say as it is much more interesting.

Hello,,, Kathleen,, yes I believe that was Mrs. Duke that called them yes the young Duke girl came home one day while her mother was washing dishes and told her of her concern for Sylvia.. It was Phillis Vermillion that "almost" called the police when the noise comming from the basement next door went a little too long.. I think it was Paula that said Sylvia was pregnant when she introduced her to Phillis Vermillion.. Then I believe Paula went on to brag about her giving Sylvia a black eye.. Yes , the nurse was Barbara and she was sent in regards to the Duke phone call ,I believe. I think the preist visited once and it was Dianna Shoemaker that visited once aswell ,, Sylvia's married sister and she was threatened by Gertrude with calling the police if she didn't go away.. The lie Gertrude made up was that Sylvia's parents didn't want her and Sylvia together.. Sylvia was confined to the basement already when the nurse arrived and the preist was after the nurse .. I know ppl with bi-polar disorder,, some in denial about it and others take their medication .. Yeah I know first hand how they go off ... That could explain a lot of Gertrude's uncontrollable rage. I also think that bi-polar ppl set themselves up for an attack by being real confronting.. Also you must factor in the fact that Gertrude herself was abused and extended that to Sylvia.. I think by the time they started to be concerned about Sylvia's condition it was to late which caused even more rage.. When you look back you see everything fits like clock-work,,, ppl playing agains't other people, not only the ones "involved" but the ones that won't get involved.. Non of which could have been planned, I mean how do you plan for people to look the other way that aren't involved ..

Good thinking, Stephen! Especially as most of the excuses found for Jenny apply just as well to Stephanie and her younger siblings, plus one more Jenny did not have: G. was their mother and they loved her.

Kai,, Be that as it may obviously they must have seen different in a court of law

Kai, could you be a bit clearer? Ignorant in reference to what? Pathetic in which aspect?

And Jenny Liken's excuse?.............Fear.

And lets not forget that while the entire B clan was lying through their teeth and following Mom's script it was Jenny who pulled the cop aside and told the truth.

The cop was out the door when brave little Jenny pulled him aside and said "get me the fuck out of here", proving that she was in great fear for her welfare. If Jenny had not turned them in it is likely that she would be dead now and the B's would never have been caught, which means most of you people would be on another forum right now defending Ted Bundy or Tex Watson. I know I said I was finished here but I have less patience for people turning victims into perpetrators than I do for turing perpetrators into victims, when confronted with such ignorance I must speak up.

Then the question comes down to why didn't Jenny take the arm of a teacher,, or her sister,,, or another policeman,,or the nurse,, or the preist,, the same questions you ask of the others.. When Jenny came forward was after the fact,, to late

And Indianapois invented the car? I was not aware of that, in fact I did not know that a city could invent anything. And if not for Jenny's bravery, Paula and Stessi would be living with a dark secret to this day and you would have nobody to defend.

Hey Kai, do not let these liberals get you down. Any level headed person can see just how far they must reach to defend these monsters.

By the way, Jenny made her break when she felt safe to do it. She said, "GET ME OUT OF HERE and I will tell you everything", proving that she was in GREAT fear for her life. Yes, shoulda, coulda, woulda, but we are not dealing with mental giants here. Be it to late she spoke up when a cop was there and she felt safe in doing so.

The truth may be that this is all a product of serious abuse and it can make monsters out of the nicest of ppl.. why? they don't know just theories Also, I'd like to say all I mean't was that you can't look at this case as a whole without considering Jenny into your final equation...

Also ,, I think it's pretty low to come in here talking down Hoosiers' just because your having a hard time answering questions straight forward.. And also when you talk down Hoosiers' you talk down Sylvia as well

What makes me liberal..? The fact that I'm trying to think this is something bigger then just a bunch of stupid hayseed dipshits..?

I'm glad people here get to see the kind of person that would elect a president that would distroy a once fine nation

Not sure where you are going with that?????

Is this the same Stephanie that you stated ultimately forgave her mother?? and the 'Not sure where you are going with that' was directed at a political comment regarding the presidential election.

Kaptain Kebo, obviously you know it's the same Stephanie. Why is that an issue if she ultimately forgave her mother? I think that has to do with her Christian beliefs. Isn't that what Chistianity preaches after all?

I'm glad people here get to see the kind of person that would elect a president that would distroy a once fine nation Stephen Hostetter on Oct 29, 2008 This is a textbook example of somebody's inability to answer a question straightforward.

By the way, Christaianity is based on bullshit and lies, only the gullible or people in need of forgiveness swallow.

Let's leave your imaginary super hero out of this and stick to logic. I promise to not bring up Santa Claus.

Sorry, but if Steph forgives anybody that was involved in how that girl was slowly tortured and killed right before her eyes (which you stated she did forgive), then she is grasping towards christianity because no logical person could witness someone being burned, beaten and branded and ever find and ounce of understanding or forgiveness within themselves. If she did not have her imaginary superhero to cling onto she would be dubbed as crazy or insane. Guess what? Paula should still be in jail......end of story, next?

I do respect you for defending your husbands sisters Kathe. Some people would just make an off handed remark assuming that I am voting for a certain candidate and then run away. All out of bullets?? I've got logic for miles, in fact while others fall into the trenches of defeat I am just getting warmed up. By the way, maybe you can set Rebecca straight on just how rough Steph and Paula's lives have (not) been. Does Steph have kids? Sylvia didn't have the chance.

Kathe, you said it perfectly. I'm not religious in the least bit, but I don't out right claim that there is nothing out there. I'm an agnostic. I don't know what to believe, because I know that as a human, there is no way I know everything there is to know about life or the world, or the universe. Humans aren't as intelligent as they seem to think...smug and arrogant, but far from the intelligent know it alls they like to portray themselves as. Fact of the matter is, NO ONE knows for sure whether or not there is a higher power. Prove it. PROVE that there isn't a God. Physically fucking prove it. You can't. Just like you can't prove there is one. Only a naive idiot would claim to know for absolute certain that we're all there is to life. Of course, then again lol...

By the way Rebecca, did you manage to locate those post murder interviews the B kids have given regarding their lives since the crime?........didn't think so, you are also a liar, so stay out of this.

Does it hurt to be so unreceptive, Kaptain Kebo? Don't worry, that should change as soon as you turn 16 years old

That Gertrude is a master manipulator is obvious. Here are my thoughts of the psychological power play she made in this situation: she had a fat, unattractive, insecure, and very angry daughter in Paula. Due to her insecurity, she allowed herself to essentially be a piece of tail for married, older men since boys her own age ignored her. She experienced rejection by these men, who ultimately decided on their wives over porky little Paula. This drove rage inside of her. Gertrude, also, had major emotional health and impulse control issues. Kathe's contention that she had untreated bipolar disorder seems quite plausible. She knew the feeling of rejection by men, and felt burning anger inside of her with no outlet. Gertrude also reveled in any attention she got from the opposite sex. When Sylvia came along, Sylvia threatened this. Gertrude really began to hate Sylvia, who was by all accounts a very attractive girl. Gertrude then manipulated Paula to channel Paula's inner hatred and anger towards Sylvia, making up lies about Sylvia insulting Paula, etc. The fact that Paula was around Sylvia's age, and was a slovenly, unattractive girl while Sylvia turned a lot of eyes did not help the situation. Gertrude nurtured and nurtured the animosity of Paula by Sylvia, and then began to encourage the ensuing cruelty shown by Paula as an outlet for both of them. Gertrude really didn't have the physical wherewithal to do what was done to Sylvia. She was a sickly woman of 5'6" and 100 lbs. That's skeletal - my girlfriend is 5'6" and 128, and quite thin. Paula, however, was 5'4" and 180, so she could be Gertie's main enforcer. Once Gertie got Paula, and then brainwashed the other kids, they would fall into line. As far as Jenny goes, I think it is sick and wrong to blame her for not speaking up sooner. Here was a 14 or 15 year old girl, completely out of her element, living with a family of violent brutes, no doubt fearing for her personal safety and/or life. She had witnessed, as Kathe has said, Gertrude manipulate other adults. Her fear was that if she said something, Gertie would simply dismiss the allegations, saying "oh, you know, kids and their vivid imaginations." "Yeah, Gertie, your probably right. Well, just thought I'd ask. Bye." And vuola! As soon as the door closed, Jenny would join her sister in the basement, as promised by Gertie; and the torture would most likely escalate due to Gertie's control issues and having her sense of control being violated. While I am disgusted by the B's behavior, no doubt, I cannot see this in as simple terms as Kaptain Kebo has. Sure, they deserved to be punished more than they have been, and they all got off easy, particularly Gertrude. However, the scary thing is that all of us have the demons the Baniszewski kids have inside of them. All of us have the capability. This is a scary fact of the human condition. Various periods in history and various pyschological experiments (the Milligram electric shock experiment at Yale) have proven over and over how depraved normal people can be given various circumstances. Basically, from my perspective, if the kids would have been incarcerated for life, I certainly would not be complaining or clammoring for their release. However, such was not the case. I believe in the redemption of humanity to some extent, and if they have lived their lives without incident since, or even if they have made decent contributions to humanity, I can accept that. With the exception of Paula and Coy Hubbard, I think many of these kids could be reformed given their age and the circumstances.

Oh, Kaptain Kebo - you mentioned you had a connection to the incident. Do you mind telling us what that is?

Someday I will, when I can no longer endure listening to 'hoosiers' stating that Jenny should have done something sooner, and that Sylvia should have TOLD Steph that the burning/branding was getting pretty bad. Ross, can I ask you, do you find forgiveness for Gertie and the gang in your christian heart? as has Steph?

Wow, an athiest?? You just moved up a notch in my book!!! (that puts you at minus 4)

I believe that post # 256 is the most intellient synopsis of this case that I have seen. Ross, you are a genius and your post sums it all up. Their really is nowhere to go from there...Genius, Thank you!! And Becca, I used the term athiest loosely, I do believe that there are things we cannot understand but do not buy into your christianity 'magic guy' bullshit. Christians like you want to treat people like shit, just as the B's did, and at the end of the day you repent and all is forgiven, BULLSHIT, if you are gonna talk it.......WALK IT. Don't kid yourself into thinking that some imaginary guy who is responsible for everything approves of you treating people like shit.

Becca, post #256 is the closest thing to reality that you will ever know about this case, and because I didn't write it maybe you can allow yourself to study it and learn something. My 'GOD' is Ross!! Thanks again for your insight and for not trying to shift this to an election forum as previous posters have. Damn you are smart........brilliant post, in the midst of us throwing personal jabs at each other you can chime in with a major insightful dose of reality regarding the actual case. And if it takes for 'God' for Steph to sleep at night so be it, I suppose it is better than drugs.

" Becca, post #256 is the closest thing to reality that you will ever know about this case, and because I didn't write it maybe you can allow yourself to study it and learn something. " Oh okay.

My father grew up in Long Beach, CA. where he met and dated Sylvia in the spring/summer of 1965. He never wanted her to go back to Indiana and hoped that someday she would return. As you know, she never had that opportunity.

KK,, People from Indiana are just like any you'll find.. I've been all over the US and Canada myself and I see no reason why this couldn't happen in any town.. I would say you have a tendency to prejudge considering your limited knowlege of both the Likens case and Hoosier's in general...

What does it say on the 'hoosier' licsense plates?? Please elaborate on my limited knowledge of 'hoosiers'? that implies that they are different while in the same paragraph you state that 'hoosiers' are just like everyone else.

Also, I could tell you more personal things about Sylvias plans, hopes and dreams than you will ever learn by hanging out on web forums, so don't ever suggest that my knowledge of her is any more limited than yours or any other crime 'groupies'. In the Easter Bunny We Trust..............you people are a joke.

You don't do Sylvia a God damned bit of service ,,, let me tell you something smartass … It's not how smart you are that counts it's what kind of a person you are .. Wow, there's a 'staightforward' answer to a question. Especially immediately after stating that I am not as smart as you are concering this crime or 'hoosiers'.

You're fucking delusional, Kaptain Kebo. Absolutely out of your God damn mind. Does your anti-God complex bother you this badly in the real world?

Not to forget,,,, GM and General Electric over on Shadeland,, and last but not least,,,, the largest childrens museum in the world...

Oh yeah, let's not forget the lengendary SLIPPERY NOODLE, one of the oldest Live Blues clubs in the country. At one time in my life I fell in love with a Hoosier and actually cashed in all of my chips and moved there. I can't explain the bad vibe I got there as I do love Ohio and Kentucky, I am not a huge fan of Indiana or Michigan but that is just opinion, I certainly do not hold all hoosiers accountable for the Likens murder.

I already told you I couldn't find them. But what does it matter, I'm a liar, remember?

I think it's pathetic and ignorant to compare Jenny to anyone in that family. She watched people come in and out of that house, see the condition Sylvia was in and do nothing and yet she was supposed to speak out under the clear threat of getting the same treatment as Sylvia? What I see on this board is mixture of compassion and morbid curiosity which is completely normal because of the horrifying story and what seems to be a miscarriage of justice because of the light sentences and absence of any sentence at all in a few cases. All of us, me included, wanted to know more about these people because it is mind bending to think they may have gone on to live "normal" lives. I think some mystery is added because of the name changes, which only fuel the feeling that they are trying to escape not just a prying public, but to an extent; themselves. There is a feeling that they should not be allowed to do this because of the feelings of horror and revulsion we have about their actions. Is this right? Wrong? Who's to say? I think that if there were knowledge that there had been some sort of real effort to repent or do something with their lives that perhaps could show that they were striving to make amends to humanity, like dedicating their lives to work with victims of abuse or something in that vein, that people may at least look at the young Stephanie differently. But saying she became a Christian? That is an insult to one's intelligence. So what? True regret, true repentance is a life dedicated to making right a wrong when it comes to something so heinous. Changing one's name and becoming a Christian doesn't show anything more than cowardice in my opinion. I think it is nice that baby Dennis' wife has posted and filled in gaps for we curious posters, but the mad rush to excuse the actions of the Baniszewski clan with these pseudo psychological "excuses" is sickening and smacks of a groupie like mentality in order to keep sucking the marrow from the bones of her in-laws family story. Sick shit happens. It happened to Sylvia and to Jenny, albeit in a completely psychological way, and most of us will ever understand it because despite what I have read by some poster on here, we DO NOT all have the capability to do the things that were done to Sylvia which is why it is so captivating and why it is easy to reject that there is any sort of absolution for anyone involved and impossible for most of us to excuse. But to even utter that Jenny is culpable in any way is ignorant and does not deserve contemplation of any kind. No worries K.K. No one is getting me down.

Rebecca and Kebo sitting in tree a-r-g-u-i-n-g

All I said was that they were = partners in their level of fear ,,, maybe you should read the book and stop making a fool out of yourself

Argument and disputes aside, Kaptain Kebo....do you have a link to Sylvia's autopsy photos? I'm not trying to start anything this time, I'm genuinely curious.

My Dad left California in 1968 and moved to Seattle, then to Phoenix in 1975 when he divorced my mother. After retiring in 2000 he moved back to long Beach and is now living 4 blocks from the church where he met Sylvia and Jenny. He has shown me the park where they would spend their days eating potato chips and drinking soda while Jenny and my aunt would play in the grass. He also told me that they would look for bottles up and down the beach to exchange for the deposits. When showing me the supermarket where he had his first job he got teary eyed while telling me that his girl would sit for hours next to the pay-phone out front waiting for him to get off work. I became aware of his connection to Sylvia when I was 12 years old and found a copy of 'The Indiana torture slaying' in a box in our garage and found 3 three pictures tucked into it, one of Sylvia standing next to a bicycle, one of Sylvia and my dad dressed for church, and another of Sylvia, Jenny, my aunt (who I recognized in the picture) and another girl who my dad said was their next door neighbor until her dad was transfered, they were all dressed up. My father took the book and would not let me read it until I was 15, by then, I had done my research at the libarary (this was pre-internet) behind his back. I never let on that I had already read the book 3 or 4 times by then. The reason I get so angry at the people who witnessed this and did nothing about it is that that 40 years after the fact my dad feels guilt because he did not want her to go back to Indiana and I don't think he forgives himself to this day for letting her, so how could anyone who actually witnessed what happened to her forgive anybody?? he told me that she planned on returning and even wrote him letters, unfortunately my mother threw them out years later. I have never seen the movie.

KK: You might have said all this about your Dad’s connection to Sylvia before; we could have met your wild rage with a different view. Maybe you could be so kind and elaborate on the reason for his feeling guilty about letting her go – was there anything he could have done about her parents taking her back to Indiana or is this a less defined thing? Also I get the impression he may have learnt of her fate by the news – which would be shattering to any one no matter what their situation is otherwise. This may not be of much help to you or to him but I would like to point out that before July 1965 Sylvia basically was a happy girl and your Dad obviously was part of what made her so.

To everybody: When I said that the same reasons for silence that were found for Jenny applied to Stephanie and her younger siblings – I did not include Paula because she’s the one I know least about and I don’t want to say anything about her until I’ m sure of what I say – I meant that they all shared the feeling of fear. Not necessarily fear for their life. Not even a fear defined any how. With a child under 12 the thinking would rather go like this: “If I tell, Mummy will beat me really bad, like she does with Sylvia and maybe she won’t be able to stop herself until I really hurt and maybe she’ll never stop and maybe I will never be allowed to see Daddy again or I won’t get anything to eat or … or ….or” . Also: “If Mommy finds out it was me who told she’ll have Paula beat me up really bad and Paula enjoys beating you can see how she does with Sylvia” or even: “If I tell Mommy will go to prison and Daddy’s not here and I will have to go to an orphanage and it will all be because I blabbered and the others will hate me forever”. I’ m not pretending I know what they thought, I’ m just giving examples. Also, I think when Marie finally tried to help Sylvia she must have acted in spite of some of her fears – and that was a brave thing to do for some-one of her age - but still she was only 11 and may not even have had a concept of what death actually means but simply acted out of compassion. I believe that none of them had realized that Sylvia was dying except herself – not even Jenny who had been told she would. And I NEVER said that Jenny was guilty! She was like Sylvia had been – it will be over if we just hold on for a while longer. Until it was too late.

Kathleen,, Kathe,, Rebecca,, Let's try to keep our productive conversations going in spite of the attention hogs that like to disrupt and agitate... It's only obvious the way they have contorted everything we have said to fit their scenerios .. The one that really got me was using OJ simpson as an example of how the Indiana justice system is unfair.. Ok,, OJ was tried in California wasn't he..? If I'm not correct they did find probable cause for evidence tampering... ?

Your posts have been among the least productive on here.

Kai,,, It was Kaptin Kabo that made that statement about OJ... So you and KK are one in the same..?

No. Read back, it was me who made the O.J. statement.

Kathleen, I was referring to Stephen's, and now Rebecca's hostile posts. Stephen and Rebecca resort to name calling and childish posts the moment they are challenged on ANYTHING they post and yet accuse others of being "attention hogs" and agitators, when in fact there are no posters on here as prolific in these tactics than the two of them. I am not K.K. But I'm not surprised that the level of their posts has bottomed to that.

Well, you just attacked me as being "warped" and "dense" and accused me of being K.K. And Stephan accused me of being K.K. and dragged me into his vitriolic dialog because I disagreed with him. When I pointed it out it was I who used the O.J. example, rather than going back and checking his own memory he simply accused me of being someone other than who I am. There doesn't seem to be a healthy sense of discussion on here, as soon as someone hears something they don't like it resorts to name calling and insults. Considering the subject and that we all have far more in common in our feelings about it than not, it's pretty shameful that rather than having a spirited and passionate debate about all the components a couple of posters ruin it by being childish.

She was like Sylvia had been – it will be over if we just hold on for a while longer. Until it was too late. Very good observation by Kathleen as to what was going on in Jenny's mind during this madness, Thanks Kathleen! This is the kind of post that has helped me to gain insight into how this happened. I have learned a lot from yourself, Kai, Ross and Kathe.

"You and Stephen were obviously in a panic that I was going to scare off your new connection to the B's (Kathe) by showing anything less than compassion and understanding to them." You make so many assumptions about shit, that right there is your problem. Kathe seems like a fairly strong person. I'm sure she doesn't need our help to defend her views or opinions. "I find your feeding frenzy to Kathe to be very transparent" ....What the hell are you talking? "Feeding frenzy"? I thanked her for answering a question that has been plaguing my mind ever since I heard about the Sylvia Likens case, period. After my initial reply to her, I wasn't even planning on sticking around, until I scrolled down and read your post. As I stated above, I don't even understand why I've been wasting so much time here.

Couple of things... First, I am not defending my husband's sisters. I have repeatedly said that I do not excuse or condone anything. In fact, I do not claim to know everything either. I have just been relaying information as I receive it, and as I know it (with respect to my husband himself). Second, I don't expect everyone to be compassionate and understanding with my husband's sisters either. This is such a sensitive subject, with so many branches of the story, that it is highly unlikely that we could all come to the same consensus. But I won't be scared off. I am glad that I have been able to answer some questions for those who have asked. I think it is a shame that some of the responses back and forth have gotten out of control, but again, that just proves how sensitive the subject truly is. I would like to think that we can rise above the fray and continue to make intelligent comments. Now a couple of responses to various comments: "While Kathe asserts plausibly that Gertie had bipolar disorder, I would say she also had a psycopathic personality, as did Coy and Paula." Ross: I totally agree with you there. Some of this was probably hormonal with respect to Gertrude (her miscarriage earlier in that Spring) and Paula (in her pregnancy). "true regret, true repentance is a life dedicated to making right a wrong when it comes to something so heinous. Changing one's name and becoming a Christian doesn't show anything more than cowardice in my opinion." Kai (and KK who responded to that post): I don't know how you could possibly know that none of the participants DIDN'T have true regret and repentence. FYI, in the case of Stephanie (which was the context in which the Christianity issue was raised), it didn't happen in that order (Sylvia's death then becoming a Christian then changing last name). Stephanie was ALWAYS a Christian. Didn't happen AFTER Sylvia's death. How could you possibly know that she did not dedicate her life to something good? And also, why shouldn't the family have changed their name? You do realize that the name Baniszewski was also the last name of their DAD, the police officer who had no part in the crime but would be forever connected, right? Are you calling John B. Sr. a coward because he changed his name? Since he was pretty much forced (how many Baniszewsis could there be?), it only makes sense that his children would also have to change their name for continuity. Also KK, I have a question for you. You mentioned that your dad didn't want Sylvia to go back to Indiana and that she didn't have to but that she felt a responsibility to her little sister. Why couldn't both Sylvia and Jenny have stayed in Long Beach? Obviously, it is such a shame that they were not able to stay there. What was the reason that they both went to Indiana then instead of staying in California? I am so sorry that your dad has felt such guilt about that; but as a teen himself, I'm sure there was nothing he could do so he shouldn't blame himself. Easier said than done, though, I know. Rebecca, wow -I didn't realize what brought you to this board in the first place was the fact that I had been posting here. I did the search through google myself and there was a blog where someone had taken my posts and strung them together with a response asking if I was holier than thou (they thought I was John B's wife, I guess). A little creepy, I must say. Especially since I don't use a fake name.

April 26, 1998 THE YOUNG AND DEADLY JOHN BLAKE WAS 12 AND A KILLER IN 1965. RELEASED THREE YEARS LATER, HE SAW HIS LIFE TURN AROUND. HE TALKS OF HIS CRIME TO SHOW JUVENILES CAN CHANGE. by NICOLLE GEHR When Millersville resident John Blake picks up a newspaper or turns on the news and learns about children committing horrible crimes, it takes him back more than 30 years to his dark days in Indianapolis, Ind. Blake is a murderer, convicted in one of the most bizarre and sadistic crimes the state of Indiana has ever seen. In 1965, Blake, then a "confused and angry" 12-year-old boy, participated in the drawn-out murder of a teen-age girl. Today, he admits his guilt, and acknowledges that his sentence - three years in a state penitentiary - was too light. Yet Blake, now a deacon, church volunteer and the father of three, said that God turned his life around. And he believes that other troubled youths who commit adult crimes - like the teen-age boys in Jonesboro, Ark., who shot and killed four classmates and a teacher earlier this month, and the Edinboro teen who killed his teacher and wounded three others Friday - should not be abandoned, but embraced and given hope. In the summer of 1965, John Baniszewski Jr. (he later changed his last name) was living in Indianapolis with his six siblings and his mother, Gertrude Baniszewski, 37. His parents divorced when he was 9. The youngest child in the family, Dennis, 1 1/2, was fathered by another man, Dennis Wright. "The whole situation tore the family up," Blake said, his eyes distant. "My mom was a very selfish, very self-centered woman. My dad though, he was a very caring, average guy, but back then, custody always went to the mother." Blake said his mother used drugs, abused alcohol and had sex with Wright in front of him and his brothers and sisters. Blake guessed his mother moved the family eight times - all to poor areas of Indianapolis. Sick with asthma and bronchitis, his mother didn't work. The family relied on John Baniszewski Sr.'s child-support checks, and when that didn't make ends meet, Blake and his siblings often stole or begged for food. The family also sold its furniture for money from time to time. "She became a mean, hateful woman," Blake said of his mother. "Us kids grew to dislike her. My mom would make me go down to the drugstore to get her illegal prescriptions from a certain pharmacist. She was addicted. "Us kids talked about killing the other man (Wright), so our parents could get back together. But we knew we couldn't do that. It was just talk." But violent talk became more than that. That summer, Wright was sent to Germany with the U.S. Army. Blake admits he had lots of behavioral problems, which is why he believes his mother sent him to live with his father, who still lives in Indiana. In July, to make money, Blake's mother took in two teen-age boarders - 15- and 16-year-old sisters - Jennie and Sylvia Likens. Their parents operated a food concession stand that followed the circus. Jennie had polio. The parents only had known Mrs. Baniszewski for a few days before leaving the girls in her care. One day that summer, Blake came home to visit his family. He saw that his older sister, Paula, 17, had her wrist in a cast. She had gotten into an argument with Sylvia Likens. "I'm not sure how to explain it," Blake said. "I felt like nobody cared about our condition as a family or about me. My anger built up." Blake moved back with his mom and siblings in a shabby rental house. It was then that the slow, torturous killing of Sylvia Likens began. "We abused the 16-year-old," Blake said without saying her name. " ... I hate to even say some of the things we did. Anything abusive or torturous was done." Sylvia was only allowed crackers and water. Newspaper clippings from Indianapolis report that she was repeatedly pushed and thrown down the basement stairs by many of the Baniszewski children - even the young ones - and their mother. But it wasn't just the Baniszewskis who abused the fearful girl. Her sister, Jennie, later told police she was forced to hit Sylvia. She was too scared to tell anyone of the abuse. "Finally, it all took its toll, and after two weeks of intense torture the girl passed away," Blake said, his stare blank. She was killed Oct. 26, 1965. According to newspaper clippings, her body was found by police after Blake and one of his sisters dragged her upstairs and attempted to resuscitate her. Newspapers reported that Sylvia was tortured because she spread rumors at the local high school that two of the Baniszewski girls were prostitutes. But Blake said he helped kill the girl in part because he was so full of rage about his family and his life. "It all built up and just exploded," he said. Blake, his mother, his sister Paula, Hobbs, and another neighbor, Coy Hubbard, 15, were arrested. Stephanie Baniszewski, 15, was tried in a separate trial. The younger children - Marie, 11, Shirley, 10, James, 8 and toddler Dennis - were not charged, although the girls admitted at the trial of joining in the abuse of Sylvia. Blake was charged with first-degree murder - the youngest person ever to be charged with the crime in Indiana. At the trial, Gertrude Baniszewski was found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. She served 20 years and died of cancer after her release. Paula, who was found guilty of second-degree murder, which was later reduced to manslaughter, was sentenced to life in prison, escaped once and was recaptured, and served eight years. They were the first mother and daughter inmates at the Indiana Women's Prison. Blake, found guilty of manslaughter, was sentenced to two to 21 years in the Indiana State Reformatory, an adult male penitentiary. Hobbs and Hubbard received the same sentence. The three were released on parole after three years. "I knew I deserved any punishment they would give me. A more severe punishment would have been just. I certainly did know what I was doing. I was too blinded by my anger to know about the results and consequences," Blake said, shaking his head. While in prison, Blake was sent to a minimum-security work camp. He worked with 18-to-21-year-olds. Blake believes he was sent there because officials didn't know what to do with him. Even after Blake hospitalized another inmate at the work camp in what he calls "a prank," he was not sent back to prison. The smallest infraction at work camp would normally land an inmate back in the penitentiary, Blake said. "My age had a lot to do with this. They treated me as an adult, but reacted to me like a kid. There were no standards for me." Granted parole a few days before his 15th birthday, Blake changed his last name. He said prison officials advised him to do so, because the name Baniszewski was so recognizable. He moved in with his dad, who remarried "the kind of mom a mom should be." His siblings were in foster homes for awhile until his father got custody. Blake went back to school in Indianapolis. Blake attributes the crime to three things: "I think a lot of it had to do with a lack of a proper family life. Also, human life was so cheap to us. And there was a lack of God in the picture. We had no sense of right or wrong." It was two months after he had been out of prison that Blake said he changed his life after finding God. "I was still angry, confused and still felt like no one cared about me," he said. "Prison did not make a change in me. There's no rehabilitation there. My world was still bizarre." One day after school, Blake was approached by a young man who invited him to Sunday school. With nothing else to do, Blake agreed and showed up at church the next Sunday. "I didn't have peace in my life, but I could recognize it." He said he found that peace through God. "I got down on my knees, and I gave my heart to the Lord. And even before I got up, I knew that my life would never be the same," Blake said, breaking into tears and sobs for the first time in the interview. "After 30 years, it still moves me." Blake began witnessing and became involved in church activities. He revealed his identity to the church. "They didn't treat me any different. I dealt with my remorse and guilt. I finally had peace and joy. I began speaking in other churches and schools ... about my experiences." Blake attended two Bible colleges. One summer, he did missionary work and built houses for the needy in Mississippi. He met his wife of 24 years, Lois, a native of Washington Boro, at the second school in Ohio. "She knew my background, because I didn't make no bones about it," he said. He has served as a camp pastor. He's worked with senior citizens and people with handicaps. He is the father of three children. Blake and his wife are both deacons at New Life Assembly of God in Lancaster. He serves as head of the men's ministry group that "helps men become better fathers, better husbands." He also leads the church's version of Cub Scouts to mentor young boys. "The people that know me, know about it," he said. He talks about writing a book "about my experiences, that in spite of tragedy, you can turn your life around." He also said there is a chance he may return to Indianapolis this fall to speak at the church where he was saved and at area schools. Blake has no clear-cut answers to how harshly the two boys accused of gunning down four classmates and a teacher at a rural middle school in Jonesboro, Ark., should be punished. Part of the reason he is speaking out is to tell people that there can be a future for youngsters who commit adult crimes. He said he is proof of that. "There is hope. There is purpose. You don't have to deal with anger like this. That's what I'd tell them. But as a civilized society, we can't tolerate this. I would say some punishment has to be exerted. When you do adult things, you must face the consequences as an adult. But at the same time, there is the possibility for hope and direction there. I would love the opportunity to go down there and talk to those boys." The congregation at New Life Assembly of God seems to have accepted Blake, said Pastor Larry Greineder. "He's spoken about it in Sunday School," Greineder said. "He shares his testimony with the congregation. He never really tried to hide it." Blake also teaches Sunday School. "He's a very active member, a real part of our congregation. He made a mistake in life, and the Lord has forgiven him, and we here accept that. I think he still feels bad, but I think the Lord is really using him now to bring healing to those in similar situations." Disabled by complications from diabetes, Blake now walks with a cane or walker. The illness has dimmed his eyesight. Now on disability because of his illness, Blake worked as a truck driver, a Realtor and a self-employed landscaper. "When much has been given, much is required," he said. "That's why I feel a need to do this. I'm the first one to acknowledge that I was underpunished. That's why I think my responsibility is so great. "I want to convey that there is hope. No, not everybody that grows up with problems will have the problems that we had. I know a lot of mercy and grace was given to me."

Kathe, I said it before and I will say it again......Your husband is so fortunate to have you in his life. When the first half of somebody's life is so less than perfect it is always great to know that they eventually found happiness and hopefully much of what they missed out on during the first half. Thank you for sharing your (and dennis') story here as you have given me much insight into this horrible tragedy from so many years ago. I do apoligize to you for how heated and disrespectful this forum has become since I jumped on board as I certainly take responsibility for causing much of the aggravation that has been all too present here as of late. The only question I ever had for Steph was does she remember Sylvia ever mentioning my dad? as I know she was not back in Indiana for long before being left with the B's, but I do not want you to ask her because I tried once and she would not reply so I sent her an angry letter (e-mail) condemning her mother and Paula (and to some extent her), so it is better off just left alone.

Kai, Thanks so much for locating and posting the John Blake Jr. interview. I have been trying to dig that up for years and could never find it. Awesome contribution!!

We both were fired because my friend took 50 cents for a pack of smokes... I took nothing but was considered a risk because I was with Paul. You see,, you can break every minimum wage labor "law" work ppl 19 hours a day and deprive someone of a good nights sleep .. But if an "employee" takes anything without asking that is considered stealing

Capitalism in it's finest hour

I'm not totally sure about the name Danny but when I hear the name I can almost put it with a face. I remember one thing,, this guy had a bad earwax problem and he acknoweged ... I remember that distictly because he pulled a ball of wax out of his ear and showed me... I liked him till then... No I really did like the guy ,,, very funny personality to be quite honest... So,, Don't quote me on the Danny it could of been Jerry,,, or whatever

I think we started working for nothing in the beginning till we seen ourselves as the primary crowd drawers ... At one time my brother and I had the undivided attention of everyone in the place on a Sat. night... heads disapeared in the darkness trying to get a look and a chance What little money we made was cash In the end we went from experts to kids that can just bearly do it,,, it was the hustle and the money flew.. The impression I got of Lester was,,, he had a new motor home ,, I think all his trailes and he had a few were kept new looking... He had several rigs and was buying more,, hell I don't know he always seemed at the top of his game... He was no Poor Jack amusement co. but he was working on it.. I did see him as a very highly motived person by the way.. No reason at all why he couldn't be as big. I will say that the whole time I was in Crown Point I feel like Lester had many people looking out for us Paul and I.. Paul was 18 I can remember one night "after the show" I found myself heading in the direction of a "party tent" and a kind man tapped me on the shoulder and said you don't belong in there,, you want no part of that... I remember that like it just happened Also I can remember when Lester let me go,,, I begged him for my job several times and he just kept getting more pissed .. I told him he couldn't judge me based on what Paul had done,,, he said yeah,, but I'm goin to anyway... end of story, go home and be a jock and finish school

Off topic, their is some great John Dillinger history in Crown Point.

I do remember Lester telling me that If I were to lose an animal I would be working for free and we should avoid this from happening by any means ... In the early years the landing mat was smaller so attendants like myself would hold the rope and let on ,,umm ppl ... Wait till they get halfway let go of the rope then when they fall they hit an air cushion instead of the hard ground... If by chance you know you have a guy that somehow defies all odds and can get close you were expected to bump the rope as you let off... Let me just say that you might wanna keep in mind the only ones that can do this are the ones working on them... Thats not to say that farmer Joe can't make one of these at home and practice over a few bails of hay

One more thing I never mentioned ,,,, my first girlfriend was a girl down the street.. I won't mention her name but her mother was in prison for manslaughter killing her husband ,,, not my gf's dad but one of several men she'd been married to... I guess it be fair to say her mother and Gertrude might have been buddy's I have no clue that's totally speculation ... There were three girls being raised by an ex-stepfather the youngest being my gf

KK; Stephanie says that Dennis Sr. was 6 years older than she was, which would have made him 20 when Denny was born. But she had hooked up with him prior to her second divorce from John B., so he was still probably a teenager then. Marie confirmed for me that what John B. Jr. said; Gertrude did indeed have sex with Dennis Sr. right in front of the kids.

It should be noted that William Erbecker was a complete scumbag, possibly as evil as Gertie, and his having all of the kids lie under oath should have gotten him disbarred. I personally hope that he died a slow and painful death. On the other hand, It should be noted that little Marie was a very brave soul (and cute as a button) for finally saying 'enough is enough' and telling the truth in that courtroom.

Does anybody know if this is Paula? http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=97270208

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted the Guns and Roses guys, I have been friends with the Van Halen camp for years, even slept on Ed's couch.

I'm glad to see David back in the game.. Now Van Hallen can get back to their original sound again

Also, can anybody tell me if 'The Basement' by Kate Millett is an accurate read? I just ordered it but I am leaving town so I will not see it for a few weeks. Just wondering how it compares to John Deans book.

Hi St...............care to elaborate??

WOW!! Doesn't that video just make you want to turn back time and save her from the madness that was going on in that house?? looks like it's about ready for demolition. Thank you for the link Rebecca, that was interesting......in fact I think i'd better watch it again!

interesting Hubbard, Coy June 25, 2007 Coy Hubbard 56, Shelbyville, died on Saturday morning, June 23, 2007. He was born in Appalachia, VA on July 7, 1950, the son of Ralph and Virginia Hubbard. He was preceded in death by his father, and son Coy Hubbard, Jr. He will be deeply missed by his wife of 17 years, Patricia (Gorman) Hubbard; mother, Virginia; his children, Tracy (David) Reynolds, Missy (Jeff) Fausnaugh, Jennifer Stephens, Ronald (Natasha) Conley, and Bradley (Kim) Conley; brother, Jerry (Vickie) Hubbard of Springdale, OH; sisters, Freda (Arthur) Hildreth of Houston, TX and Wanda Foster; 17 grandchildren; and one great-grandchild. Funeral services will be held at 7 p.m. on Wednesday, June 27, at Flanner & Buchanan Funeral Center – Washington Park East, 10722 E. Washington St., with calling there from 4 p.m. until service. Burial will take place at a later date in Big Stone Gap, VA. http://www.flannerbuchanan.com

Hi, Kathe and KK, as to Erbecker having been a scumbag, let alone “maybe more evil than Gertrude”, I’m not sure at all I can agree. Alan Dershowitz says in his book “If the devil were tried on earth he would still have the right to the best defence a lawyer could provide.” Which means a lawyer’s concept of honour needs to be different from yours and mine. Most lawyers are skilled liars and have to be; most don’t get caught at it, but then, most lawyers don’t need to put 11 year olds in the witness box, especially not ones with a conscience. That he did so just shows how desperate his case was. All he could hope for was saving his client’s life. The brutality of doing this to Marie I see mostly in her confusion as to what was expected of her. I’ve yet to meet the lawyer who tells his witness “I need you to lie.” What he can say is something like “It wouldn’t look good if we changed our tactics now.” Then he goes on to make suggestions, as “This noise in the night, might that have been someone else? Who might have been up at this time, Paula maybe?” Most grown up people would understand but you can’t do that to a child already under a lot of strain. Marie at her age couldn’t know that most clever lies are those that stretch the truth just by a bit. If you stretch it too far, the lie becomes obvious. Which is exactly what happened. (“That noise in the night was Paula, getting ready for work. In the middle of the night? Yes, our clock sometimes is very wrong.”) When she burst out “O God help me!” it must have been with as much relief as despair, poor thing. And all this for a line of defence that didn’t even work!

Kaptain Kebo: That is definitely NOT Paula. I read on another site that she was windinmyhair for a while but now it's just windy. I'll see if I can find the link; but it's restricted to her friends only, so you don't see anything really. I'd also like to know what you think about "The Basement" after you read it; Kathleen described it accurately. I did read it before "Indiana Torture Slaying". Hi Kathleen: Not too much to report; although we go for the EEG this Friday (Den missed the first appt, but did make his MRI); then meet with the neurologist the Tuesday after that. Denny has finally spoken with Stephanie now too a couple of times. She gasped when she first heard his voice and said that it was like speaking with a ghost because Denny sounds exactly like his dad, and then she broke into tears. And Ross: I've seen that passage by "Patti" on several sites now, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. We haven't spoken to Shirley yet, so I'm not sure if any of that is true. No one has mentioned Shirley being a lesbian to me, however I do know she goes by Ann now, which is her middle name.

Kathe, Thanks for confirming that it is not Paula. Stephen was right, the chin and eyes did not match. I certainly have no intentions of attempting to make contact with her, and certainly do not want to harrass her in any way. I just had heard that she has a page and I was hoping to see a current picture of her.

Hello Kathleen,,, You know,,, I wanna say that maybe Jenny worked or walked by my rig... I know from years later that she did cash my check at the Mechants Bank on Main St. in Beech Grove.. That I remember very well but didn't know her at the time as Sylvia's sister.. KK,, I am an artist and I'd like to think I can tell a face when I see one.. The photo you posted of the woman may very well be Paula ... I've studied the photo from the pic I have of Paula from the ITS book... I can match an eye ,, the nose is hard to tell because the older photo is over-exposed some but the mouth is almost a perfect match too and the cheek bones are high as well.. She just has a fuller face now.. I think this is her Also I forgot one: Henry Lee Summer

Hello Kathe,, Thank you for that... Sylvia did die in the bedroom NOT the basement according to the book ITS. PS... quote: But when Stephanie began to undress Sylvia for the bath, Gertrude ordered them to dump Sylvia in the tub with her clothes on. "Hurry!" she said. Sylvia managed to groan. " I wish my daddy was here", she moaned faintly. After the bath Ricky and Stephanie dried Sylvia and dressed her in warmer clothes, a sweater and pedal-pushers. They laid her on the mattress in the bedroom. Gertrude followed them into the bedroom,shouting frantically,"Faker! Faker"! She picked up a book and slapped Sylvia hard on the side of the head. Hobbs practically pushed the hysterical Mrs. Wright down the stairs. Shirley brought up some hot tea and asked how Sylvia was doing." Oh, she's alright," Stephanie assured; but she had already suggested to Ricky to call a doctor. Stephanie raised Sylvia's head and brushed the girls hair back; she seemed to revive somewhat. "Oh, take me home, Stephenie," she pleaded. "Oh, take me home, Stephanie." would be Sylvia's last words..

Something else: did any of you ever come across a description of Gertrude’s voice? (You know, high/low, clear/throaty, loud/hushed)? Not that it is important. It’s just that I have a thing with voices and think you can’t ever know what a person truly looks like until you’ve heard their voice. (Most striking example: Eva Péron. The impression from silent footage changes instantly once you hear her) There are just a few photos of Gertrude (six, all in all, I believe) and each of them is so different from all the others that one has to look twice to be sure this is really the same person. I still have trouble to imagine her and it would help if I knew how she sounded.

I know that feeling, the feeling of wanting to get the hell out of there.. In the video you can hear the guy say lets get out of here at the very same spot my cousin said the very same thing..

Kathleen,, The feeling I had when I had this ,, wind? go up the back of my shirt was a very real thing.. I wouldn't even of mentioned it if it wasn't for my experiance with Lee Shoemaker.. her nephew. Lee would never greet you to your face he would sneek up behind you and run his hand up the back of your shirt... Or he would wack you with a rolled up paper on the back of your knees if you were a girl.. I'm not trying to get any kind of reaction from anyone I'm just telling you my experiance as it happened.. I myself do not believe in ghosts but I do know fully well what I experianced ... Maybe someone that knew Lee Shoemaker can come in and validate what I say is true ,, about Lee anyway..

Stephen, how old was Lee when he got up to this kind of behaviour? Did he do that for a joke or did he intend to be disagreeable?

I'm not totally certin but I think the garage Lee burned down was the garage of Barb Sanders on N.5th st. The social worker that didn't go into and check the house at 3850 NY st.

Go in and check she did, far as I know, she just believed Gertrude more than she should have. Gertrude told her it was true Sylvia had sores all over her body, but hand run away and she didn't know where she was now, then went into her lamento how bad her own health of and how everything was getting too much for her. Ms. Sanders then completed a "once only"-card, meaning a follow-up visit wasn't necessary, and that was that. That might be a motive to burn down her garage if one is Sylvia's nephew - on the other hand, he was too young to remember Sylvia himself, wasn't he? Although you needn't remember her personally to feel your family's pain. Still, I think that was uncalled for - he might as well have harrassed Ms. Vermillion, and the priest, and the Hobbs and the Hubbards. Or turned against his own mother for not getting up against Gertrude.

Jeremy,, his brother would say, "don't encourage him" but you know kids.

Ok, I was unclear if she'd even went in ,,, she looked around but failed to open the basement door where Sylvia was,, at the time..

Thats funny you should ask why Lee didn't rebel agains't these other ppl in his life he might of resented = as well.. I could be way off as far as Lee and Sanders connection but these happened in the same time frame.. myself I was floored to hear Lee burned down a garage but maybe not real surprized at the same time.. I do remember his mom was a knock down gorgeous woman.. ! Seemed a bit high society for living in South Grove

I remember Jeremy looking right at me when he said ,," that was my aunt" almost as if to say ,,, I have something I been meaning to tell you.. 1979 our senior year

I was unaware Diana remarried

Stephen, I know that you were offended when I made the original remark about Indiana. When I said that it was directed at the fact that the parole board voted to release Gertie and not in reference to anyone on this forum. Having said that I have a confession to make, I live in Arizona which IS documented as maintaining the LOWEST I.Q. rate of any State Nationally. When I read back at some of the posts that I have made I am truly embaressed at some of the statements I have made. I find you and other people on this board to be very interesting and knowledgable regarding the Sylvia Likens ordeal. I think that since I have been told that Hubbard relatives have been defensive on other boards, I myself have looked a little too hard for point/counterpoint situations. By nature I am not such a flame thrower when it comes to burning bridges as I have been on this forum, and again, I regret much of how I have communicated here. For what it is worth, my sincere apologies to anyone on this board that I have offended. (including Rebacca).

Hi, Kathe, I’m really glad about Stephanie’s reaction and even more about its implications. It’s so obvious that she cared for him a great deal, and in all probability she still does, and although he can’t have a memory of Dennis sr., maybe the similarity of their voices will achieve to give him a sense of continuity or of a kind of a bond. All this of course needs to lead up to some change in the way he feels about himself, which is something entirely different, of course, and, I imagine, a reason to fear more disappointments and pain. If everything goes alright, the presence of his sisters in his life can help him but altering his understanding of his own person to something more positive will have to be mostly his own work. Still, one vital step seems to be done and think it took him a lot of courage to talk to Stephanie. I’ll be thinking of you and Dennis jr. on Friday and Tuesday and praying for you both.

Thanks Kathleen, Their really is no question that I need to have answered. I was just curious about any details, but not enough to drag anydody on a trip down memory lane, although in hindsight that is exactly what I did with the e-mail, please understand that in the 27 years since I found the book, etc., we have had only talked about it 3 or 4 times and it has always been upsetting to him, so rather than ask for any details I always changed the subject. Guilt was displayed in the context of "If I would of tried harder to keep her in California", but he is not a naive man so I am sure that he realizes that at 16 years old he was pretty limited as to how much influence he had on her leaving or staying, from what I understand her staying was an option but I do not know the circumstanses other than Jenny apparently did not have the option so Sylvia planned to return to California 'someday' and I kind of wonered if that was something she ever talked about with the B's, but you do add a deeper spin that I had not even thought of. I can tell you this, he did not get laid until the front side of college at age 18. Please know that I realize that we are talking about a teenage romance that lasted 3 to 5 weeks, and if Sylvia's life had not ended the way it did I never would have heard about her through my dad, as I could not tell you the names of anyone else he ever dated, other than my mother, so I am not trying to unravel some family mystery, nor do I feel 'connected' to Sylvia any more than all of us who are aware of her sad short life. My dad is merely how I found out about it. Thanks again for your thoughts about it! And thanks for in a nice way, helping me to realize that what I did was pretty dumb (as obvious as it is now), expecting her to want to recall those memories only to satisfy my curiosity. If I look a little deeper it was my curiosity combined with being in 'punisher' mode, which leads to something else that I have learned on this forum, it is not my place or job to attempt to 'punish' anybody.

Kathleen, I totally understand what you were saying. I hope you don't think I was being defensive at all, I was just rambling on about what little I am aware of for anyone who is interested. You are spot on with the 'transfer' statement also.

Hello, Stephen: care to elucidate where you are going with this? For the life of me, I can’t see what these two topics in your last post have to do with each other. Judge Rabb did indeed refer to the Stephenson case. If I’m not all mistaken, that was because some medi-cal expert had said that none of Sylvia’s injuries in itself could have been deemed the cau-se of death before he pointed out she could well have died of them later than she did. Okay – and where is Stephanie in all this? Because she as well knew of Sylvia’s condition and didn’t seek medical help for her? If that’s where you are heading, we `ve been there, Stephen. First of all, she DID try, read Kathes posts re: epilepsy. Second, it’s one thing to be afraid someone will die and another one to KNOW they will. You can’t, especially not at sixteen and as the culprit’s daughter. Hence the difference between taking the one or the other half-baked, inapproprate measure and going to the police and tell them what your mother and siblings have been doing. I’m not sure at all though, if that IS what you refer to.

We know exactly where Sylvia died.. We know exactly what they did to her... We even know how many forks and spoons were in the house... We would definatly know about any epilepsy through other family members during the trial.. I feel it would have been brought up by someone if not by Steph herself.. Her father would have known,, her brother's and sister's ... Why no mention

Sylvia had cigarette burns that went to the bone,,, she had a massive infection under the left arm. She was skin and bones,, Sylvia had chewed her upper and lower lips completely in to In the last moments of Sylvia's life everyone w/ exception of Gertrude showed rational thinking behavior... You know, lets get help for Sylvia she looks bad.. In fact it looks like we might be in trouble here... Lets get help hurry.! All the sudden Sylvia's condition seems life threatening

Does anyone know if the stairs were painted red, white and blue when the B's lived there? If you look at the black and white crime scene photos it appears to have been. Also, I assume that the upstairs wall was not painted blue with the clouds until after they moved.

The way Sylvia looked to Kevin is the way she looked ... In the right minds of the children she looked this way too.. As I mentioned they did prove this in the end.. Kathleen could you look at these photos and still have an open mind... ? After all a picture is worth a thousand words

Stephen, any input on the stairs question? (red, white, and blue?) also, is the clawfoot bathtub still in the upstairs bathroom?

Stephen, I haven't seen the photos. If I looked at them I 'm sure I'd feel much the way Millett did and I would want a cigarette at once to put some distance between them and myself, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to sleep, I'm sure I couldn't eat. What do you want this to prove, though? Stephanie saw the change in her and tried to help. Marie saw the change in her and tried to help. Gertrude saw the change in her and panicked - hence the allegation that she had run away, the plan to lose her in Jimmy's Wood and the letter. None of them needs to have been afraid of her death, until it had happened. They could have been afraid of a charge of child abuse, by Sylvia's parents or state authority or both, for herself in G.'s case and for their mother in the case of all the children. The state of her body is horrible - however, what I onclude from the facts of the case is no different from before. I'd rather get back to what Erbecker said at the end of the long, long question to the doctor: Do you think someone could do this to a person AND be in their right mind?

I saw an autopsy picture in the book by John Dean. It was sickening and haunting. I could barely eat for the rest of the day after having seen that. That poor little girl.

Ross, if you found an autopsy picture in Dean's book, you must have got a different issue from mine. The only "usual" photo in my copy is on the backside, showing her torso with the horrible "3" and the words on her stomach. Bad enough - but I wonder if the issue containing the picture was forbidden at sometime by whichever authority?

Hello, Kathe, I hope that in this case no news does not mean bad news? I'll keep thinking of you and your family and wish that things turn out all right, in whatever which way.

Hello,,, I have a true story about two men that made choices,,, doesn't have anything to do with Sylvia's case but it is an interesting story non the less... Would anyone care to hear this story..?

Hi, Kathe, thanks a lot for your kind words, I appreciate this very much. It seems I have properly annoyed some people on this board, first by stating that Kevin’s description of the autopsy photographs, horrible as they were, did not change my view of the case. Then by maintaining that the Baniszewski children’s rational behaviour on the day of Sylvia’s death did not prove that they could have acted in the same way before and chose not to, but simply that they had – by delusion or by ack of better knowledge – not believed that she would die. Thus, when she had, being faced with a completely different situation which made them – some of them - behave in a completely different way. And again by saying that Stephanie and Marie did what they could but couldn’t be expected to go openly against their mother and sister. Thing is, I know how dysfunctional families work - and how they don’t work. Normal behaviour patterns just cannot be applied. I said before that I do not wish to go down on all this and I won’t, I’ll just say that we were three sisters at home and not once in 20 years we managed to talk to each other about what was going on. It’s hard to imagine that Stephanie and Marie could have sat down by themselves or with some of the others and discussed what was happening., like in: „Mummy will kill Sylvia if this goes on – any ideas what we could do“ or „Paula never was like this before, so how about talking to her first?“ Sounds absurd, right? Because it is. . Something much more important: If the MRI and other tests don’t show anything usual I think this is even good news, at least so far – sounds as if the genetic testing just had the function of further exclusion, just to be sure that Dennis jr. is not affected. There sure has been some progress in the process in recent years. Before, the genetic testing was very difficult because one had to bring lots of blood samples from related persons. In the case of the family I told you about this was a bit of a problem since the daughters of the affected Dad had only just enough family members for it to be possible at all, and these relations had to be first located and then persuaded. The sister I talked to on the phone said it took them ages. By then it was clear, however, that her older sister had Huntingtons, just as with their father, the doctor took one look at her and knew. That was more then 10 years ago, and so far, she seems quite okay most of the time – if she needs help sometimes, it’s more because of her psychic or emotional state, fears and bouts of rage and so on. Also, her younger sister described the onset of the illness in her, and it doesn’t sound anything like your descriptions concerning your husband. She offered to give me the older sister’s phone number and said she wouldn’t have a problem with telling me about it but I think, as long as your husband is not diagnosed as affected, I needn’t take it up. Unless you’d like me to, of course. My next question is pretty personal, I realize that and of course you don’t have to answer this. I just was wondering how your son is dealing with all these exciting novelties in your family? I mean, two aunts he never had contact with, their respective familes, cousins, maybe even second cousins by now … I should think that this were quite confusing to anyone in their teens nonregarding of their own situation. And then I somehow get the impression that the concept of adoption in itself is easier to explain to an adopted child himself than to the child of someone adopted. No idea why, really, just a feeling. I know you said your son had never been comfortable with his peers but Stephanies and Maries children sure a grown-ups now or at least a good deal older than he is – is he interested at all for himself or just on behalf of his Dad or not at all? Greetings, to all.

I personally believe that Sylvia never did get any attempted help in the final hours. I believe that she was thought to be dead when brought upstairs and the motive was just to clean up her body to draw less suspicion when the Police arrived. The bath was not to attempt to revive her, it was just 'covering tracks', a gesture not intended to help Sylvia but to help themselves. I am currently reading 'The Basement', what a great job Kate Millett did of providing much more insight to the whole situation, certainly a must read for anyone who has read John Dean's book. Also, here is a link to a new Sylvia Likens Discussion Forum, looks like it could be good....... http://forsylvialikens.yuku.com/directory

Paula couldn't very well run after anyone.. Did anyone care where Paula was when Gertrude was rushed downstairs.. She could have been there for all they knew.. I should remind you they lived on a 4 lane oneway street in the heart of the 11th largest city in the US. They went to the largest highschool in the state of Indiana .. They were educated enough... Am I sounding delusional when I say ,,, " OK,run outside to the 4 lane oneway street and flag down a person,,, any person, and say,,, " we have a girl here with her lips falling off her face..! Can we get some help.."?!!

Kebo: Either in this forum or another, someone mentioned something about jailhouse interviews with Gertie. I have been looking all over the internet for them, but have not found any. I don't know why, but I'd like to see/hear her talk. I can tell a lot about someone from vocal patterns/mannerisms etc.

Hi Ross: I'll look for that article. It is either in articles that I ordered from the Indiana State Library or found online as I know that I gave it to my husband to read; the journalist who wrote the story had interviewed Gertrude and two other inmates. It was not about the Likens case. She was talking about apparent sexual abuse of female inmates by guards. The journalist had not really done all his research, which was obvious to Gertrude at the time of the interview. "You don't know who I am, do you, young man?" Gertrude asked him. He admitted that he did not. After he left the prison, he read up on her and was shocked as to whom he had interviewed.

Kevin,, The John Dean account was writen by a man that was there in the courtroom .... These other books you speak of,, were the writers of these other books there or come in after the fact..?

Hi, Stephen, no need to worry that much, I don’t think anything could distance us from chatting. What disturbed me a bit was merely how you kept up your line of arguing without ever answering anything I said against it. I have said several times that in the moment when Sylvia was dying or had already died the situation had changed dramatically for all the Baniszewskis. I have said, too, that people do not go against their own families, even against better knowledge. I did not say they should not, I did not say they need not, I just said they don’t. That’s why, as long as Sylvia was still alive Stephanie could delude herself that things were not that bad and there was no need to go against Gertrude respectively an anonymous call or two at the police was all she could get herself to do. Or Marie – I doubt she thought that Sylvia’s death was imminent, her motive in trying to help Sylvia es-cape or in getting Getrude to put ointment on Sylvias legs („Mummy, she looks terrible“) probably was just compassion. Running out to the Street, flagging down anyone and say „We got a girl here with her lips falling off her face“ would result in having to say „My mother did this!“ and yes, Stephen, asking this of anybody, as long as you are capable to tell yourself, no, it’s not as bad as this, sounds delusional. And where Paula’s absence at the time of Sylvias death is concerned, Dean is quoting from trial transcripts from the questionings of the police and their notes. They were already there when she came home and they took note of the exact time of her arrival, her name and her age. The description of her person – „dark hair, big, slovenly appearance“ - was added by Dean himself, I believe. So no one had a reason to do anything against her nor even an opportunity. Hi, KK, as to the accounts of what happened when Sylvia was dying respectively had al-ready died (Kebo, post 422) I’d be careful about believing all that readily what either author says. Where Millett’s description of Sylvia’s last moments – down in the basement and all alone in her version - is concerned, don’t get me wrong, that chapter is Millett at her best, that is where the woman shows what she can do, it’s a damn fine piece of writing, but no more. Millett doesn’t even claim to be doing anything else than imagining and the words are merely there to symbolize feelings. Dean now, it’s true that he was in the courtroom. But more lies (for whatever reason) are told in a courtroom than anywhere else. And the descriptions of what happened at that time are all from the people accused without any other witness, right up to the moment the police arrived. To me, Deans description has something decidedly odd. We all know what the medical experts said about the state so-meone with Sylvia’s injuries would be in. Inertia, extreme slowness or downright lack of reaction, reduced relfexes, incoherence of thought and speech, losses of conscience, lack of emotions, incapability to process images and sounds to perception of what they mean … Jenny said that two days before her death Sylvia tried to say the aphabet and got to D or E but no further, and tried to count to 10 and couldn’t, leaving out several numbers. That sits well with the medical expertises. It’s hard to imagine someone in this state – wor-se two days later - would speak two grammatically correct sentences, one with a conjunc-tive in it („I wish my Daddy were here“), the other one involving recognition of the person bending over her („Take me home, Stephanie“). One has got to remember, Stephanie wanted Sylvia to live. (I don’t think anyone could deny that - even tthose who believe she merely wanted to keep herself out of trouble will accord that she wanted to save her in that moment) And in this kind of situation people tend to hear what they want to hear. Sylvia may have said „Daddy’“ at one point, as this would be one of the words most deeply roo-ted in her brain, and she may either have said „Home“ or uttered a grunt one could take for that word, but about the rest, I’m persuaded Stephanie was deluding herself.

I can remember when dad was sick and confined to a chair I spoke about his encounter with Jim Jones to someone online.. I told him what we were discussing and he got shitty.. He said ," Don't tell that story.." ! I said why.? He said, well hell ," because those ppl are still around.. " I said, " don't worry dad I don't think they were all evil... He said, "tell them the Max Bear story instead".. He was a funny man,,, I mean sittin there dieing and worried that the peoples temple is coming to get him..

Hey Stephen: Do you mean Max Baer, the fighter? Max Baer Jr. (Jethro from Bev Hillhillies) was one of my dad's golfing buddies.

Hi, Stephen, this a sad story and a moving one. You are aware of, by having conquered the drink, you are part of an élite amounting to 2 %? All these years of new forms of thera-pies being developed, and the percentage of those who stay off it for good has not risen a bit. I should know, as I’m a daughter, a granddaughter and a niece of alcoholics as well as the partner of a dry one. You were right to run to the police station as well as brave. Re-mains to say, you were trying to protect your Mum - not someone outside of the family. By what you say, though, if you say you would have done the same for someone who had come to live with you as a foster child, I guess I would believe you. My experiences are a bit different. I can’t talk about it in that same open way you manage to. All I can say is, at one time when my Dad was hitting me worse than I could remember he had ever done and did not seem able ever to stop, I thought that if my mother wouldn’t do something now she never would. He must have seen that thought on my face because he turned around to face her and said „If you go to the police for her sake, I’ll kill her. In one year or in five or in thirty, I swear I will find her and I will kill her.“ She believed him and at the time I did, too. (A few years after that, there was a situation where he could have killed me and at least SAID he would but then stopped in mid-movement and said he couldn’t do it because he loved me too much). Neither my mother nor one of my sisters could do anything to help me or if they could, they didn’t know they could. And I’m quite sure that many people in this world experienced something similar. Hence my idea that Stephanie and Marie could not be expected to go against their mother and sister.

Oh,, and I noticed that your British,,,,,

Stephen, I did not mean to imply that The Basement was a 'better' or more factual account, what I meant is that it is a great addition to Indiana torture slaying. John Dean's book is a mandatory 'to the facts' account, and after reading it a number of times over the years I found Kate Millett's book to be fascinating as well. I think that her 'inside Gerties/Sylvia's minds' sequences added a lot of insight, much of what seems to be accurate, but both books are great and I have great respect for John Dean, and you are right, he actually covered the story as it happened.

Hi, Stephen, "Oh,, and I noticed that your British,,,,," (Stephen Hostetter on Nov 18, 2008) ????????????????????? Care to elucidate???

Hi Stephen, well observed. Still, only half-right. My family is a pretty mixed bunch of French, Dutch, Irish and German origin. As I grew up in Germany, German and French were my first languages, with bits of Dutch added by my gran. I didn't start to learn proper English until I had learnt to read and write, and it really shows. When I'm tired or under a lot of strain, I make mistakes and people with a fine ear can still detect a French accent when I speak. Greetings!

Jennifer, What's the title? I am interested in purchasing it once it comes out.

Hi, Jennifer, like Ross I'd very much like to know the title and if that's not decided yet, the author's name. Let us know, please.

No, it is not. I have to ask the author before I can release any new information. I'm going through the final edits right now, as a matter of fact. I'm going to see her this afternoon, so I will ask her what I am and am not allowed to say. But I will update you tonight after our meeting. It's being authored by Gisele Veilleux, who received the manuscript from a former inmate of Gertrude's not too long ago by mail. I was floored when I read her initial draft. Okay, I've got to get this finished, but I will log more tonight. I know Gisele will be excited that people are interested!! There's a video about it she made on YouTube to advertise. Type the title Justice From Within and Sylvia Likens and it should show up.

I just recently heard about this case and was appalled to hear that all the perpetrators got off so easy. I usually don't post but after seeing this message board full of either delusional people who are sympathetic or the actual perpetrators themselves pretending to be someone else post "poor them" messages I had to reply. Rebecca you need to seriously get a life if you are not stephanie, Marie or one of those crazy fucks from that family. To sit there and lie about interviews they never gave and say it can be searched on google is in of itself fuckin crazy like you are. I mean, seriously, who does that? Who would make up seeing interviews? You must either not be the sharpest tool in the shed or a few sandwiches short of a picnic. The only people besides Sylvia and Jenny I feel sorry for are the children that those crazy fucks were allowed to have. I can't even imagine what people like Paula did to her own children or neighborhood children after being released. Someone who is wired so wrong can never be rehabilitated and should stay behind bars for the rest of their lives if not put to death. Rebecca, to say that they had hard lives is a fuckin joke compared to the hard life they caused for the Likens family. Hard life would be them going through the same shit they put that poor girl through. Paula the fat ugly slut was pregnant and had the gall to accuse Sylvia of being a prostitute. Clearly, it was Paula who was the fat slut. For fucks sake Paula was 17 years old which is old enough to sign a fuckin contract to join the service so don't sit there and sugar coat what she did and say she was a child. If you can shoot a fuckin M16 at 17 and go to war you are dam sure old enough to understand right from wrong and stop the insanity that was going on in that home. Instead Paula (the poor little child of 17) was the main perpetrator. Let me use my intel analyst skills here. Due to my analysis, my assessment is that Rebecca (who is pobably that fat cow Paula) will have the same old boring not so witty comeback of "this poster is 6 years old" Followed by "my ree ree boyfriend and I LMAOROFL"

Rebecca "Yeah, Paula talks to the press all the time." You just answered part of your own question, dumbass. And you CHALLENGE me!? ROFL" That was just classic. You claim to not be a twit but somehow the sarcasm of this totally escapes you. You truly are not the sharpest tool in the shed. I just cannot fathom anyone being that stupid unless they are a ree ree. I hope for your sake you do have the excuse of being a ree ree. I hope you don't have any children and can still get yourself fixed before passing along those genes. Seriously, imagine the product of you and your lmao boyfriend. Please don't do that disservice to a child and the rest of society who will have to pay tax dollars for another ree ree in the world.

Well,, if it ain't little miss personality.... If the glove doesn't fit ,,, you must aquit.. Hmm a bloody glove in OJ's bushes was about all they had that would stick... I wonder how it shrank,,,, maybe little miss personality knows... Also,, watch your mouth you little twit, it's a sign of extreme ignorance and shows complete disrespect for the person you claim to defend

Wow, Soldiergirl, I bet you feel REAL badass right now, don't you? Was "ree ree" a word you just recently discovered? I'm going to tell you the same thing I told KK, only in shorter and simpler terms: Grow the fuck up and get a life....or better yet, get a job.

Rebecca, I said that I was sorry. I still love you and I want to talk. Hope all is well, Cheers....KK

Johnny Cochran didn't play any race card ,,, he just had to show how Lt. Ferhman was a known racist and that Ferhman wanted to get into OJ's ex-wifes pants but was rejected.... It's was important to know who and what kind of person Mark Ferhman was because he was the primary evidence collecter which produced the "bloody glove" that didn't fit... And all those nice "perfect" spots of blood collected .... Cochran went on to prove that there where holes everywhere in the prosecution testimony...

So Stephen, Are you suggesting that Mark Fuhrman planted the glove as an attempt to 'keep a black man down'?. You surely do not think that somebody else killed Ron and Nicole........do you??

Hey SoldierGirl, are you in the Military??

Kebo, Yes I am in the Army.

Now I know why we can't find Bin Ladin..... Jesus..

is it that funky monkey rank dank chuky puky pungent yeast got ya down

News bulletin: soldiergirl alias reereegirl has been found today in her northside appartment silent but deadly estranged husband has been questioned and released no further news at this time

estranged husband jumps for joy but falls from the second story window to his death last words were beware of the curse the curse of the reereegirl

estranged husband jumps for joy but falls from the second story window to his death last words were beware of the curse the curse of the reereegirl monkeyspanker on Nov 23, 2008 Wow you are very witty monkeyspanker /sarcasm off. How long did that take you to come up with? A few hours I assume. How cute - Stephen, Rebecca and Monkeyspanker all have a place to high-five each other when they pool their intellectual might and come up with articulate insults like "SoldierHarold" and "soldierslut." My personal favorite was "Mr. potato head ." JT and others, I do apologize for the name calling, but when I see f*ckwads like Stephen, Rebecca and monkeyspanker post their nonsense drivel I can't help but to respond. Rebecca is just a plain moran who makes crap up as she goes along such as the interviews that never existed. Stephen is a middle aged fat white guy that likes to play the racism card which just pisses me off when a white person does it. He talks about how others don't know what it is like being a black man. How in the hell would he know what it is like to be any ethnicity but white? Somehow he thinks it makes him look cool to play the racism card when there isn't even any racism on this board. When I read his posts where he has called several people racists I just go /boggle. Then there is Monkeyspanker who for the most part, his posts are more or less unintelligible and hard to read and figure out what he is trying to say. Maybe if he would put away his gerbil before typing he would make more sense. To Rebecca, Stephen, and Monkeyspanker, If you bark like a dog or whine like a dog I'm going to treat you like a fucking dog. If you don't like it then grow some thicker skin to match your thick skull.

SoldierGirl ... where does your problem with middle age or 50 + people come from? (Are you going to kill yourself when you get to that age?) And why do you link that age group with overweight? AND with pretending? Puzzling ...

SoldierGirl … where does your problem with middle age or 50 + people come from? (Are you going to kill yourself when you get to that age?) And why do you link that age group with overweight? AND with pretending? Puzzling … Kathleen on Nov 24, 2008 I don't have a problem with middle aged people. I have a problem with Rebecca and Stephen who just happen to be middle aged. Rebecca likes to call every poster who disagrees with her 6 years old, so therefore I'm just pointing out their ages. I don't link that particular age group with being overweight. However, America has an obesity problem and the obese people usually aren't the ones who are active in outdoor activities or going to the gym and lifting weights. The obese in this country are usually the ones who sit in front of a computer all day. Monkeyspanker, on the other hand, is probably a teenager who is obese and living in his parents basement on the computer all dam day. Hell, since i'm stuck in a shithole of a country at the moment for a year is the only reason I even get on message boards because there is nothing else to do really during my free time. If I was back in the states I dam sure wouldn't be posting, but instead I would be out doing real life activities. Like I said before, Stephen is mildly entertaining like a pet monkey who has the shits. If I had a pet monkey here who just happen to have the shits then I probably wouldn't even read the drivel that Stephen spews for its entertainment value. Pretending? If you are asking about Rebecca making up articles of interviews from Stephanie, Marie, and Paula about how they supposedly claimed that their lives were miserable because of the noteriety of this case then yes I guess you can call that pretending. I would just call it a plain stupid lie to try to prove her points which she can't clearly articulate without making crap up. Stephen also claims that the Indiana justice system is never wrong. Yet he claims the family court system in Indiana is all jacked up because he lost custody of his child to a convicted child molester. I personally believe that the Indiana family court system is in tact and working as intended and not giving custody to dolts such as Stephen. Clearly, there was a reason he didn't get custody. He must have been the worst of the two evils. I guess I find it mildly entertaining to make fun of hypocrites like Stephen.

she couldn't make it in the private sector so she joined the camel toe Ftroop she's loves a good foxhole but never call her one shes manly and loves her PBR warm over a sizzling 50+ yr old corpse w/no hair she's a mighty ole gale w/ a trigger finger whistles while she works on the camel toe squad She looks mighty fine from 400 yards in those combatbooties oh don't you love the US money mill

stephen is one hell of a feller to bad now that hes 50+ he looks like helen keller but in my book hes the master 50+ near death story teller stephen became catholic when he heard stephen was stoned he said where do i sign bring on the sheba and comfortable ass throne as he sits there looking on his ass starts hurting as he smokes from that 50+ bong he gets pissed when he has to stand sit stand sit but going to catholic church well you'll have that shit hes a fun loving guy with so many interesting stories to tell but if you take his splif he'll smoke you in hell communion is a hastle cause he usually dumps his weed but the chance to see all those fine asses makes him rise like a bull stead stephen dont take this poem the wrong way I too like to now and then smoke a good jay

I quit posting on here because of the hostility towards differing opinions, but I've ben following the discussion for the most part. It's pretty sad that it has degenerated to this degree considering why this board exits. But, I have to say that you all can dish it out, but you can't take it very well. I felt that I posted respectful and insightfully only to be attacked and accused by Stephen of being another poster in disguise...to which, I thought, really? Are people really that paranoid? Anyway, Soldiergirl comes on and talks to some of you the way you talk to others and Stephen loses his mind. I think everyone needs to remember why this board exists. If you want to mindlessly and immaturely attack people, or one another, why not do everyone, including the memory of Sylvia, a favor and take it somewhere else. Just stop responding to one another, that might be a first step.

yeah let me guess stephen must be out of sheba

....?....

To Stephan: I just reread the posts to make sure I wasn't mistaken. I wasn't. I think soldiergirl is a foulmouthed rage filled person, but some of what she said in her first post I agreed with. She didn't address you in her first post yet you took it upon yourself to provoke her further. What's the point? You attacked me because I *gasp* used OJ as an example of how justice is miscarried, didn't direct it to Indiana, just the justice system in general, just my opinion of a guilty person getting away with murder as most of the Baniszweski's did, and you lit into to me like I killed your dog or something. I was just posting here like everyone else, not insulting anyone, not calling names, and was attacked by you completely unprovoked. And considering you did that to me, I was just pointing out that when SG attacked someone you got upset and called her names. You are not a friendly poster and have no tolerance for people who have different opinions than you. Rather than discussing it civilly you attack, like a few others on here. I don't post much, I found this subject interesting and was shocked at the rudeness. You can disagree without calling names or attacking, and just ignore people who rage and carry on.

Kai,,, I may have been a bit thin skinned true but If I said anything personal please excuse me ... It would help if you could quote me since I have no clue what exactly you are refering to. I think it started out with KK switching names and attacking me then you chimed in telling KK that " thats ok KK I think I'll be ok" like you have a close connection to the likens girls then nothing else was said... I got nothing against you personally but If you have something to say say it... I think some of the problem has been myself reading past post and trying to comment without posting a quote.. Anway,,, I hope we can start a new and ignore these few new offensive posters regards

Soldiergirl: Why don't YOU quit trying to provoke people for no real apparent reason. I hadn't directed any of my posts to you. I usually just respond to someone's question, so I don't know how that is "butting into my husband's past and dragging crap up." Perhaps you are Angee from the other board after all. Big deal - you're a big tough army chick. Whoopee. No one here cares about your bonus or college fund or the fact that you were homeland security making 90K a year. Talk about dragging irrelavent crap up...

"you're a big tough army chick." I wouldn't give her that much credit. I'd say more along the lines of scary butch dyke in the need of some serious anger management.

"you're a big tough army chick." I wouldn't give her that much credit. I'd say more along the lines of scary butch dyke in the need of some serious anger management Rebecca, you are the butch dyke who still has a boyfriend after 5 years and no ring. How pathetic is that. Also your little quote about go back to Iraq was humorous. Why don't you fuckin do something for your country instead of shoveling food into your mouth. Kathe White, I don't give a flying fuck if you think I'm Angee or whoever. And if you think for 1 minute that the posters on some other message board were really Marie, Paula, and Stephanie, etc.. then you need to fuckin grow up and realize people can be anyone who they want to be anon online. As a matter of fact I highly doubt you are who you say you are. Who would be fuckin stupid enough to use their real name on a message board and say they have a connection to that fucked up family. You just set your autistic kid up for failure if any of his classmates read this crap and see that he is the grandson of Gertrude. Get off the fuckin comp and take care of your kid. Rebecca, Holy shit son, you have got to be the stupidist person I have ever encountered in my life. Sylvia will never have to experience pain again. Go through your life without a soul to offer love and forgiveness and see if it's worth living. Rebecca Wilkins on Oct 25, 2008 Well if its not worth living then why do all the convicted murderers on death row want to get out of prison so badly? At least they still have a life unlike Sylvia. Do some research! There have been interviews and reports given by the children about how their lives have been since the murders. You don't need to know their new names to find them! My boyfriend supports me in not being a narrow minded twit and being able to look at something from a different prospective. Rebecca Wilkins on Oct 26, 2008 Interviews and reports are not some anonymous people on a message board claiming to be them. "Yeah, Paula talks to the press all the time." You just answered part of your own question, dumbass. And you CHALLENGE me!? ROFL!! You should change your name from Kaptain Kebo to Kaptain Bebo… as in Bebo the clown! Rebecca Wilkins on Oct 26, 2008 Looks like Rebecca started the name calling back on oct 26, 2008. And you're a fucking idiot! What a crazy world we live in! It's 2:30AM, I'm tired, and i'm not going to go digging through old websites to recap on the interviews. You wanna find them? Get off your lazy ass and look them up on google. …..What the hell is foutaa? Rebecca Wilkins on Oct 26, 2008 Rebecca, Stephen, White and that dipshit Monkeyspanker seem to think they own this message board and are the only ones who can use profanity or call people names to get their point across. When someone else comes along who stoops down to their level they can't handle it. Just like Stephen in so many previous posts has called people racists but when his little crackhead friend makes a towelhead remark he simply says nothing and by being silent condones the racism of Monkeyspanker.

I am from a long line of Military and, honestly, I can not say one thing against anyone brave and unselfish enough to serve. SG, you are to be honored for the duty you have undertaken to insure things like free speech and the freedom to even have something as freedom based as the internet, but, I implore you to take it down a notch and know that you are better than the angry reactions you are having. I understand the frustration and anger you feel when you read posts where people defend the Baniszewski family. I feel it too. But this is a board dedicated to Sylvia I think and letting yourself get ramped up because of a few attackers is beneath your station. Let them spin. I think your first post was in line with what most people feel. So, I ask you to just ignore the negative and engage in debate, or ideas with the like minded and respectfully exchange ideas and thoughts. Hopefully you don't tel me to ---- off and help the board et back to the purpose for which I believe it was intended.

sg couldn't fight her way out of a wet paper bag what a waste of US dollars the bitch cant work for respectable ppl w/ that kind of attitude they'd kick her silly ass in the street cant you see shes just a young little potato head and kai you fucking stupid hen pecked little mommys boy you need to go pull your head out of your ass and quit condoning the taking of human life you eye for an eye mentality slip notch chicken shit sg your about as pathetic as they come and I hope you find that 30-06 round you been on a death wish waiting for

tell us something sg just how many races are there in the world in your opinion

Towelhead: based on a religious custom of wearing a turban. one that claims that his religion is not uncivilised as it is a perfect excuse to rationalize terrorism and abuse twards women and who ever deemed an infidel to allah this is the context in which towelhead was used now have the army send you school before you keep making a complete fool out of yourself

Since when does supporting the military have to do with supporting the war?? I think the war in Iraq is a complete lie and a sad waste of human lives. But, my uninformed sad poster, all wars are over ideas and beliefs in religion. And the reason you have your freedoms and the country you live in. Like it or not we are all beneficiary's of war in one way or another.

kai the vietnamese won the war in vietnam and im still letting freedom ring if this is in fact freedom

yeah your in need of help indeed question mark i'll bet your catholic because mommy is catholic and your a war monger because you have been programed and hard wired by your military infested family to believe the media hype brainwashing you have a gangland mentality an eye for an eye which leads to total distruction of mankind and i need help cause i dont understand why your the way you are

Okay. Discussion, or lack thereof is over. There is clearly something wrong with you.

sorry man but i have a hard time supporting a war that cant be won we have been looking for one man for going on eight yrs now we have spent trillions of dollars our country has sky rocketing unemployment which has thrown our country near total bankrutcy we have poverty and crime levels on the rise in every major city I'm suppose to support the fact that hundreds if not thousands of our kids are losing their lives and for fucking what? what exaclty have we accomplished besides tearing apart our country and the economy we should support a war even though we are finding it hard to feed our own and maintain a decent lifestyle my message to all the trickle down theory fatass fuckin republicans is take a fucking look outside while you drive to your plush office building get a fucking clue man you are in some serious denial you fuckin ppl make me ill and you can support these fuckin nuts on your chiny chin chin you and your free world support the troops hand me down garbage ill do exacly what i damn sure please and i wont miss a fuckin wink of sleep knowing i went aganst your sick ass wishes

Stephen, I hope you didn't mean what you said - that you'd stop posting here? There are other posters beside SoldierGirl and the likes of her and we really need your participation. Couldn't we just act as if they weren't there? Greetings, as always

quite good advice coming from a trigger happy disfuntional security guard that earned just over minimum wage thank you for that hey maybe I'll just go live with the amish a

Stephen: Your posts and insight into matters ARE appreciated around here. Don't let some minor disruptions shake you up.

I think it's beyond funny how you can come on here and type out these long childish essays of swear word after swear word and then suddenly turn around and have the audacity to blame me for using mild profanity every now and then through my previous posts - posts that had been made over a month ago and aren't even relevant anymore! Whatever profanity I used on this forum was done out of frustration, unlike you who seems to use it because you think it makes you look "cool". Let me tell you something, SG. The fighting that had occurred before is over and done with. It's been over and done with for a month. Everyone pretty much agreed to disagree and that was the end of it. *You* were the one that came on here, and *you* were the one that started mouthing off at everyone in the most unintelligent, obnoxious, and childish fashion I've yet to see anyone use here, and *you* were the one that disrupted the peace here and stirred up old stupid shit that doesn't even matter anymore. If you came here to make a point, the only point you've made is that you can't handle a debate maturely and that you're an extremely unstable person, and I HIGHLY doubt you're in the military. I think you're just saying that to make yourself look badass. For someone who lives such a busy, meaningful life with so many responsibilities, you're sure on here a lot, and from the looks of things, you're only here to cause drama. You don't believe me about the interviews? That's fine. I understand it's easier to call someone a liar when proof isn't immediately available then it is to actually sit down and think that just maybe it did exist at one point, but was deleted from the web when the website it was on shut down. It's not like that could of been a possibility or anything! My original intent for coming to this forum was because of Sylvia Likens; I never meant to cause trouble. That seems to be the ONLY purpose your here. So you know what? You say you'll address anything I post, but from here on out everything you type is going to be ignored. Maybe then you'll get bored and find yourself a new hobby.

Rebecca, You try to bully people who don't agree with you and then get pissed when someone comes along and uses the same tactics as you. I don't give a flying fuck if you believe I'm in the military. Maybe you should check the IP address and just from what country I'm in it might seem obvious that I am. As far as being on here a lot. Lets see after PT from 0530 to 0630 we get 2 1/2 hours breakfast (takes 5 minutes to eat at the DFAC) At lunch which is from 1100 to 1300 we get two hours. Again lunch takes 5 minutes at the DFAC. After eating I usually spend about 15 minutes checking e-mails and lately this board. That is 45 minutes of computer usage a day during free time, including after dinner. You are on here everyday all and I'm sure jobless. Kathe White, Sure you have a job in the legal field.

Jennifer??

Does anybody have any info regarding Coy's post Sylvia criminal resume? And Stephen, I think your writing style is vey unique and really draws the reader in, somebody else said it but I agree that you could write a very ineresting book.

Hello,, Google: Obituaries Indystar.com Hubbard, Coy June 25, 2007 Shelbyville IN I'd put up the link If I knew how... Hope this helps Regards

Hi, everybody, Kebo’s enthusiasm about the Millett book made me read it again after a long time, and that, again, got me thinking about Jenny. It’s really a bit strange about Kate Millett – her view of the case is so much coined by her feministic history that her perception seems downright twisted in part - but where the way girls were brought up in the 60ies really wo-uld offer an explanation she doesn’t really go into it. Everything that applies to the classical socialisation of girls applies to Jenny more than to others. Because of her leg. Or rather, because of the consequences physical impairments like this used to bring about. Girls we-re brought up to be passive, responding, obedient. Sylvia tried to be all this. Jenny was all this, more than Sylvia and more than most other girls of her time and age. For she had always been considered someone’s responsibility, someone who needed to be protected, someone one needed to do things for, and she ended up considering herself as such. She had not been taught to think for herself, nor to ever make a decision for herself or to go out of her way and do something unusual. If Sylvia had told her to talk to a teacher … maybe, then, but I suppose Sylvia would have had to choose even the teacher for her and the time when to do it. As long as nobody told her what to do, she didn’t even know she could do something. Instead, both girls told themselves (and each other perhaps) that this would end if they managed to hold on for a while yet, until their parents came back. Of course, this is all guesswork. Greetings to all, as always

New: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzjognC7EM8 http://www.lulu.com/content/5088189

So I guess I'm supposed to think that maybe the Baniszeski's all lied but while lieing they stayed on the same page..? Or am I to believe that maybe all the testimony wasn't brought out in the courtroom ,,, enough to write a book on..? I might read this book but take it as just another "Kennedy assasination theory" type situation. Is Oliver Stone free ,,? Maybe we can get him to do the new movie,,, he seems to be nieve enough

Hi, everybody, I agree it's a proud price and I hope it's worth it. Stephen, where do conclude from that the Baniszewski's all lied, and what do you mean about them staying on the same page? I believe my English fails me again - or else did I just miss something? Of course it's all theory - most of it is and remains so, even in Dean and sure in Millett and in everything we say here. Can't helped, that. I think you are spot on with your statement about Lester and Betty being used to squalor so that they didn't have any standards about where you could leave your children and where not. And your theory about the girls feeling abandoned and Sylvia's determination not to complain to them possibly stemming from there sure has something to it. Maybe I'd have wanted to punish my parents for leaving me like this somewhere, if I ever had been in such a situation. As you say, it's hard to imagine, but I can see a young girl developing a "Serves them right" - attitude, or even feeling like "I'll show them what they get for it" and "They'll regret that more than I will". Well, I suppose that last one certainly came true. God, it's all so sad. I sure understand why you sometimes get depressed diving into details like this - I do, too. I found it helps, though, if you end up understanding things you didn't understand before, even if it's a small detail. One feels less depressed afterwards. Many things Kathe could clear up for us had this effect on me. Like an abscess bursting: I could never quite imagine, for example, Sylvia trying to say "hi" back to Marie on that last day and, finding she couldn't, waving her hand instead. Once I knew, though, that Marie had tried to help her escape, I could see why she would, it sits well with both girls, then. Small things like this - once I know, it hurts less. Have a good day, all of you.

Stephen, I think in the last two/three days Sylvia was not suffering any longer, not physically at least and certainly not from pain. The medical expert in the trial described the condition of someone with her injuries and in prolonged shock as being characterised by numbness, lack of perception and drained from emotion and the ability to react. Which explains, among others, that shovel action during the last night of her life. She wouldn't have been able to had she been able to feel pain or fear. It doesn't make it less bad, of course, seen how much she suffered before, but sometimes our body shows itself merciful to us. Take care and be kind to yourself,

Hello Kathe, I'll have to read this book just to see when they might of had such an oppertunity converse to contrive a false story.. I'll take it with a grain of salt, I'm just glad the story won't start at the beginning ... I don't think I could read that again.. Best Regards

I'll have to read the courtroom accounts once more.. I was thinking everyone had to come clean w/ the confession of Marie .. When I get time I'll pick up the book once more and try to sort it out. I just can't imagine Marie confessing with a made up story and the lawyers not being able to pick it apart and exposing the holes. Marie was what 13 ,,? this story jives like a well oiled machine ...hmm Just hard to imagine but I suppose not impossible but maybe Marie started the ball rolling and the others just followed who knows.. Now, if this be the case we must re-think the image of sweet, honest, forthcoming accounts which might of condemed otherwise innocent ppl.

bear in mind also that the coroner can tell a timed sequence of events

Hello, everybody, according to Dean, Shirley's testimony took place before Marie's and she was not questioned thoroughly, being even younger than 11 year old Marie. Also, in Dean's description she seems young for her age (10), her behaviour is more what you'd expect in a 7 or 8 year old - many times she was not aware of what her testimony implicated, then this smiling, bouncing, sudden tears ... But all in all, her account just didn't yield much and there wasn’t much others could or had to adapt their own testimony to. Dean makes it quite clear that Marie had been put under a lot of pressure by both Erbecker and Gertrude, and Millett shows how Marie was mixing truth and imagination even after her famous „O God help me!“ but it does not seem likely that the gist of what she said was all lies. She would not only have had to be a skilled liar but a damn good actress, too. And then, the main part of Marie's account in court, especially her breaking down, was about the branding. Paula didn't say anything in court and Johnny didn't; Ricky admitted to the branding for both occasions. Therefore I don't quite see where you are going with "staying on the same page." I can imagine that in Getrude’s eyes the three boys had so much against them already that a conviction was going to happen anyway, it couldn't do them any more harm if they were accused of having done more than they actually did. They were all minors and wouldn't be in for long (which proved to be true), two of them weren't even hers (Gertrude did always imply or say outright: "It was the children, and rather the neighbours children than my own") and maybe Gertrude perceived Johnny as stronger than his sisters. I can even stretch my imagination to Ricky admitting to more than he actually did – out of guilt for what he really had done or even out of some ill-advised gallantry to Getrude – but I don’t think it’s possible for so many accused parties to concert their statements on a large scale. At least not for long, not with everyone having a lawyer of their own and the lawyers sometimes at war with each other and at war with Erbecker all the time. Not with all the medical experts. I took that statement about not all the truth having been brought out at the trial to mean something different: Details, like Stephanie having under Phenobarbitol, Marie having tried to help Sylvia’s escape, things leading up to violence, all the children knowing that Gertrude had something wrong with her … Thing is, I first watched that trailer about the film without sound and when I had the opportunity to watch it with sound, it was no longer available, so maybe I missed something?

OK; that makes sense with Shirley testifying prior to Marie. With respect to Dean's description, I was told that Shirley was a preemie and was always very small for her age so that makes sense that she appeared to be more like a 7 or 8 year old. Kathleen, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about missing something regarding the trailer.

Hello everyone,,, Well, I found the movie "An American Crime" finally. I went into Block Busters and asked the clerk and she directed me to a corner of the store you might not expect the movie to be. In the corner of the store way off behind the games.. The movie is not what I had expected.. The Indiana Torture Slaying and An American Crime are about as different as day and night. Of course one is a book and one is a movie but both are supposed to be taken from courtroom testimony.. The movie is very short. Lester is depicted as having a southern accent, maybe to someone living in the far north but I don't remember him having one.. I know, thats trivial. The movie starts out with Paula making friends with Sylvia and her telling Sylvia about her secret, her pregnant condition. One night Sylvia see's a boy being rough with Paula and she blurts out, " stop she's pregnant".! According to the movie that was the three words that started the ball rolling and shortly the whole school would know Paula's condition.. The movie depicts Paula getting her revenge but when the real torture starts she backs away not wanting anything to do with her mothers evil ways.. The smaller children don't back away and seem to take much pleasure in the torture with Gertrude nowhere in sight.. Has anyone seen the movie, An American Crime and what is your opinions about the movie? Myself, I think they left out way to much which in effect changes Dean's accounts 180 degrees. Kathleen,, thank you for your confedence in my writing skills . I'm still giving a book much thought but as of now can't really figure out a place to start ..

Do they explain at any place why this crime is supposed to be specifically american?

Hi Kathleen: I guess it will be interesting to see what this new book will supposedly reveal. Stephanie and Marie have both said that a lot of what was said during the trial was not true. I am hesitant to say exactly what they have said to me because I'm afraid it will start up a whole debate, but basically in their indication that Gertrude "set up" John Jr., Coy and Richard, they have also said a few items I have found interesting but have yet to press them much further. They both have said that John Jr. did not do a lot of what it was claimed that he did do (such as hanging Sylvia from a nail with her arms tied behind her back) and Stephanie has said that much of the testimony implicating Coy was not accurate either. Many of the times when he allegedly was there, she said he was not there. I know they both had a great deal of love for John Jr. and they have told us that he was a very good man and that he ended up helping many wayward kids during his time as a lay pastor. Just so you know, at first I was horrified, like many, that one of the Baniszewski children had become a lay pastor and that one had become a schoolteacher. Now, though, I can see why Stephanie is a teacher and she is actually a very smart, sweet and caring person. And both Stephanie and Marie have told me that John Jr. (he was called JB) often talked about Denny and wondered what had happened to him in his life and kept positive for Stephanie and Marie to not forget him and lose hope that they would find him someday. They are both very sad that we did not find them prior to JB's passing, and Denny is sad as well. I'm sure I'll get a bunch of angry people coming back at me about this, so before I do, please know I do understand their feelings. Hi to you too Stephen: What struck me most about An American Crime was that they depicted Paula being Sylvia's friend when actually that was Stephanie and the dream sequence where Paula helps Sylvia escape, when the one who tried to help Sylvia escape was actually Marie. The whole dream sequence didn't work at all in my estimation. I thought that they put Gertrude in too sympathetic of a light, but I get that Tommy O'Haver was trying to show the human element because that's part of what makes this so hard to understand. But I thought that both Catherine Keener and Ellen Page did excellent jobs in their respective roles. I'm not sure why they included the character played by James Franco because in real life, Dennis Wright Sr. was already gone when Sylvia came. They named the character Andy instead of Dennis or Denny (as he was called, which is why my husband was Little Denny or Baby Denny), and then they named the baby Little Kenny, obviously for legal reasons, although both names are used in the book so I'm not convinced that there would really be any liability for the producers. Also they had Richard Hobbs having a crush on Sylvia, when he obviously had the crush on Gertrude herself. What I have read about why they called it An American Crime is that society as a whole was somewhat responsible for what happened to Sylvia because many people saw things and knew what was going on but sat by and let it happen.

Hello,, I believe that the hanging Sylvia from a nail can't possibly be true.. That is if she actually hung there with her full weight on the nail ... I even looked for that evidence knowing as I was looking that it was either a lie or exagerated.. I'm guessing Sylvia was 100 lbs and no nail would have held that weight for any length of time if it did at all.. Also Sylvia's arms would have shown evidence of rope burns on her arms. Could easily have puddied the hole where the nail was and it could have been a large screw instead of a nail but I doubt it.. I'd be more inclined to believe she was hung from the coat rod in the closet but then she'd still have that brusing around her arms.. The second I read Kathe's comment on that issue I knew I was talking to someone that really knew the facts and Kathe is genuin and I take to heart everything she says to be such.. I wish Stephanie and Marie would write a book ,, I would pay any amount they asked..! And even better yet knowing the money from such sales might go tward a foundation for Sylvia's cause. And also to finally bring to light the full truth of this terrible tragity.

Hi Kathleen,, Who knows, maybe these kids just reveled in the attention "at the time" as was mentioned by a social worker that made statements to the fact.

It may be that they thought, "well, I'm going to jail and I might as well just be a smartass and a liar"

I mean't all the males involved ,,, the ones that the social worker said, they seemed to be proud of what they had done,,,, John B. and Ricky Hobbs

I think Ricky actually had a mental break down a few years later when he finally came to terms on what he had done.

Kathe, I am very anxious to get your review on the new book! I once read a quote from John Jr. that "Sylvia was in the wrong place at the wrong time", that comment has always stuck with me as it is just such a tragedy that Sylvia turned out to be 'the perfect victim' for Gerties rage and other psychological disorders. Stephen, Kathleen is right, you could write a very compelling book of your experiences, combined with your insight to the crime and people involved, I would certainly put in an advance order. Hope all of you are having a great Holiday Season!!! p.s. Stephen................try to keep it under $34.99

Hi Kebo: From all I've read, Gertrude had more opportunities in prison that she ever had in her life outside of prison. She attended school, had "jobs" there (she was the personal assistant of the prison chaplain or something like that), and from all accounts was respected by the other inmates (yes, they called her "Mom"). It is probable that Gertrude was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer while still in prison and that had influence on those who voted for her "early" release.

Speaking of reviews on books, Kebo ... your opinion of Millett's "The Basement"?

I noticed that some of the people posting on the imdb site have noted that they just received their copy of Justice From Within, so I would expect that I will get mine either today or tomorrow. It is around 106 pages, large type, and one reader remarked that he finished it in around an hour. Actually nothing really new there I am told. There are maybe 10-15 quotes from Gertrude. The inmate didn't even know who Gertrude was until years later after her release. She said that Gertrude mostly kept to herself. I will hold judgment until I have read my copy of the book, but it appears that at the high price that this book costs, Gisele Veuilleux is out to make some serious money per book. Obviously the inmate gets a cut, but someone calculated that Gisele is probably making around $23 per book. I'd be willing to bet that if Stephen wrote a book, it would undoubtedly yield more interesting information than what this will. It was not mentioned what was revealed about Paula. I noticed that the only mention of Paula in the trailer for the book was in the title itself. If there is no information with respect to Paula, why is her name even in the title at all?

Well, I did get my copy over the weekend and I was able to read it in about an hour. It didn't yield much information really. Gisele's client lived in the same "cottage" that Gertrude lived in, but she wasn't in her actual room with her. Gertrude mostly kept to herself. Gisele's client did not know about Sylvia Likens or how she was murdered. So the remarks that Gertrude said must not have made much sense to her at the time really. There are a few interesting quotes from Gertrude and one from Paula. Paula was described as very cold and no one wanted to approach her at all. Gisele and her client have a section at the end where they basically answer the questions that they pose at the beginning (the ones that will supposedly be answered in the book), but it is their opinions, not facts. Things such as they do not believe that Gertrude suffered from a mental illness such as bipolar disorder. Obviously they have absolutely zero qualification to make such claims. I know for a fact that bipolar disorder runs in the family and it is arguable that anyone could do such horrific things and not be mentally ill. I think it was extrememly overpriced for what it was.

Hi Kebo: I am seeing posts on the new Sylvia forum, but I know some people are having trouble seeing their posts, namely Investigator. Have you gone to the moderator? She said something about Investigator accidentally being set to private or something, so don't know if that's the same issue you are having. I have only made a few posts so I do not know if others can see them. I think Investigator still cannot see his posts too. With respect to Justice From Within, the inside back cover lists a site http://justicefromwithin/blogspot.com for comments. There is a comment there from Gisele regarding the price of the book, and she claims that Amazon will make more than she and her client will make on the book. Welcome to the world of self-publishing it says. She also reminds people that the book is copyrighted material and to not post any of the book anywhere without the permission of the publisher. There's also some person claiming that Mademoiselle Gisele is not a liar and that she did verify the inmate's stint, etc. I am totally a believer in karma too, you know, what comes around, goes around. I don't know much about Paula's life, but I'd like to think that karma will have its say at some point too.

bad Karma won't be experianced in this life,,,,,, It's the ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existance... It comes from the Hinduism and Buddhism religions

I also tried to send Mlle. Veilleux an email as listed on her lulu page for her book, and it also filters (you have to name yourself and state your purpose), so perhaps she's getting a little paranoid.

I'd buy that book, Kebo!

Yeah, Kebo, we'd love that! And everybody from this forum get's a signed copy, right? (Come to think of it, make that a dedication).

By the way, I don't want to sound the absolute snob but the person (Schwindt?) on the other blog who called Ms. Veilleux "Mademoiselle Gisèle" obviously does not speak French. It's okay, though unusual these days, to use Mademoiselle together with the last name, but address a woman as Mademoiselle in connection with her first name would only be done if the lady in question were a high-class prostitute. Which I guess is not the case (I mean the prostitution, not the high class).

Hi, Kathe, I know exactly what you mean, and I think that at least part of me can understand your husband, not wanting to know - at least not soon, and not since there is some reason to bei optimistic. I guess this kind of thing is harder for the respective partner than for the person concerned himself. Did any of you see the photos and articles someone put on the IMDb board? I couldn’t even properly thank him or her, since I can’t post there – the infos they want me to provide before I can are to much for my liking. But they are just great, and for the first time ever I saw a photo of Stephanie as she was then. I guess there aren’t many of these around be-cause she got acquitted but I was curious because everybody describes her differently – except Millett who does not describe her at all. Dean describes her as very pretty, some posters on some board who had seen a photo said she was ugly, then someone answered it was just the sixtie’s hairstyle and unbecoming glasses … Well, I think she was pretty enough, and if I think she looks a lot more mature than her 16 years – I could easily have taken her for a grown-up woman – it may be because of her glasses or because of the situation she was in. Mostly I think her face shows intelligence. What really got to me, though, was a photo that showed Gertrude crying on Erbeckers shoulder. Not so much because of Gertrude but because of him. I had no idea they were close enough for this even to be possible. Hard to explain what I mean … I guess I had him down as strictly pro-fessional and I had not expected for him to be so fatherly – or let’s say protective. Strange how one can chew on small details.

Where can I see the pics?? I looked on IMDb under 'American Crime'. Thanks for any help!! Happy Holidays!, K

classmates asked where they live to narrow the search .. any idea?

Kebo: go to http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0802948/board/threads/, go to the topic list and choose topic "emptying the vaults"(third page on my display, but that may differ), and then just take one after another, there are two or three dates where this person (forgot the name, something complicated) posted photo after photo, many from newspapers, some are just articles. There is another topic called "autopsy photos" - they are not very clear but since seeing them once had this effect on you, I'd skip these.

Hi Kathleen: No, Gertrude never remarried. That other blog is having some problems and a poster named investigator responded that she did not marry again (he is the atty who put me in touch with Stephanie in the first place), but for some reason people cannot see those posts. The administrator has been having problems with the site in general I believe. I agree with you that Stephanie was very pretty girl. Sorry for the typos in my previous post; I didn't have my reading glasses at the time.

Merry Christmas to all of you!! Thanks for the tip Kathleen, I was a little late and I think some pics have been deleted. I agree that Stephanie is very courageous and I hope that nobody is stupid enough to send her any negative e-mail. I would sure like to see Paula put herself out there as well but I do think that she would get a negative reaction from a lot of people (I know, I used to be one of them). Anyway, Happy New Years to all of you!!

wow...i read the entire forum. you seem like good friends. i feel unbelievably sad about sylvia, i wonder how her parents handled the depression after finding out what happened to her. i saved stephen's post about sylvia's last words.it was so sad.i nearly cried."oh,stephanie,come take me home."i feel so sad for the poor little girl. i cant get over the case. i have never read any book about sylvia. i want to read indiana torture slaying. i've asked copies from local bookstores but they dont have any copies.im from the philippines by the way. pratically no one here knowsanything about sylvia. i myself have wondered,how was she like?how did her story affect the people of indiana personally? i wish this tragedy had been prevented. we failed sylvia.

Hi Kebo, Kathleen, Stephen and everyone: I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday. Kebo, did you register on classmates.com? I just looked and Stephanie's pics are all still there on her profile. There are 10 shots down in Stephanie's Photo Album. I wasn't aware that you had to be a member to see them, as Kathleen says, but that must be the case if you can't see them.

hello stephen thanks i'm just not sure if my parents will allow me to buy that book

Hello everyone, Hi Cammie, If you watch this movie and read the book Indiana Torture Slaying you might come away thinking you just heard of two completly different stories... Myself,, I don't think they read anything to make this film.. Not one thing They took what's called artistic license of the story and made a fictional story based on the true story.. Which is what Oliver Stone did for the movie the Kennedy Assasination so that it would entertain ppl more then the true life facts ,,, which means If they would have stuck to the true there wouldn't be enough content for an entertaining movie.

You people need to get another hobby! -other than Sylvia Likens' tragic death. I've read all 617 posts that have been left, and they've turned from a review page for a small indy film to how everyone is either related to, or was babysat by, or went to school with someone in that house. The Likens family ARE still around and haunted by 1965. To them, it's not, "An American Crime" or The Girl Next Door." These girls were their children, their loved ones! They are haunted by the decisions that were made back then and when they close their eyes at night they see their baby on that matress. All I've been reading here is, "Did she die here or did she die there? , Was she hung on the nail or not? , Did she get hung in the closet or would there be rope burns on the courps? Did O.J. do it or not!? You people make me sick! If you truely want to help children who are suffering today, please either become a court advocate such as C.A.S.A. or go down to social services and volunteer, you are needed. But please don't say that talking about this one case on this one blog is doing Sylvia "Justice"! I mean no disrespect to anyone nor do I mean say that your experiences aren't truthful. I just believe that Sylvia would want people to use their time to fight abuses that are happening today rather than dissect a poorly made movie or a book written by a reporter with an associates degree at the time and believing that all to be "gospel". By the way, Natty Bumppo also penned, "A fable: The Case of a Half-Rotten Apple", and published " A Rug Before My Time: The Memoirs of Pecker the Cat." "Indiana Torture Slayings" had 189 pages, yet there were 10's of thousands of court transcripts in that case. Mr. Bumppo picked and choose what he needed to to complete his interpretation of the facts. That book was not intended to be a case study. I believe he makes that clear at the beginning of the book. Although, I believe he did a great job summing up the horrors at 3850 East New York Street, you cannot find the EXACT truth, ever! There is a few posts that really do upset me unrelated to Sylvia Likens here. Stephen... Don't try to write a book about your experiences. (LOL) First, you question even yourself about if you've met these "people" for sure. Second, even if you did, the stories you told weren't that big of a deal! While Jeremy stood up in class an said "She's my Aunt" is kind of a cool thing for you, it doesn't make for good reading. As far as traveling with Lester, you already stated that he never talked about Sylvia or Jenny. I dated Jackie Gleason's grand-daughter for 7 months, but I can't write an interesting book about Jackie Gleason. Also Stephen, I hate to break it to you but Stephanie damn well knew what was going on in that house! She was 15, dating Coy and was at that house everyday! Nowhere (reputably) does it state that she had chronic "absence" epilepsy nor that Gertrude's phenobarbital was really Stephanie's. It really annoys me that because you found Stephanie (Baniszewski) Blake on "Classmates.com" and became (LOL) FRIENDS - you're her only one on that site by the way!, you know in your heart she's not only innocent of any wrong doing, you go farther and state she did EVERYTHING she could for Sylvia! If that's true, than why did Sylvia die?? Ask your new friend!! Please people, quit waisting so much time analyzing such trivial concerns about this horrific case! There are so many cases going on right now of torture and they need your help. I personally see it everyday and it is as severe as you can take. Read about Dorothy Dixon, Aiyana Gauvin, Baby P., The Kokomo, Indiana child torture case., Shanda Sharer. It's going on as you read this blog. Get up off your asses and save these children, comfort them, and get them away from thier abusers! Use the gift of Sylvia gave us and that is we won't stand for it anymore or keep quiet. And for GODS SAKE don't make "friends" with the accused!!! Oh, by the way, the only thing Dr. Hooks 1972 song, "Sylvia's Mother" has in common with Sylvia Likens is the name Sylvia! Sylvia Avery was Dr. Hooks ex-girlfriend whos mother happened to hate him. She was afraid he was coming over to see her so mom said she was moving. I really can't see what made anyone see the Likens case in that song, not one word.

Correction, Syvia's mother was written by Shel Silverstien. Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show was the name of the band, not the songwriter, Dr. Hook was (is) not a person.

let me ask you something Tim,, why does it matter that we or I am reminded of Sylvia by this sad song..? why does it matter to you

Tim,, We've all had mixed emotions .. I've said things on this thread I shouldn't have .. My social studies teacher started to talk about the incident and he was silenced, maybe thats what I should do.. Maybe If I don't talk about it it will seem like it didn't happen.. I don't remember how the conversation got on OJ but the way you bring it up it does sound bad.. Had to do with the current legal system from what I recall. I visited Stephanie's page and seen her photos with crumples, as though she had tried to erase herself from her own tormented memory. Somehow she must have found the courage to preserve and post them on the website and overcome her fear of rejection.. That's more then I can say for most on classmates. Bout all you see is no face w/ no story but they paid the $$ . makes one wonder what they are ashamed of. Stephanie lived a pretty uneventful and somewhat normal life up untill the madness that was about to happen shortly after she moved to New York st. In just a few months she would be testifying against her family in a capital murder trial knowing her own mother might get the death penalty.. Stephanie was aquitted because there was proof that she tried to save Sylvia several times.. If ppl wanna view me as soft or just plain stupid then so be it .. As far as John Dean goes,, I've heard that he didn't get it all right but no one can produce any evidence of that..

Tim, I understand you point of view and I don't envy your job one bit.. As you stated though, you can do your job and experiance the frustration of the revolving door of the legal system.. If I can't stop the legal system from putting my daughter in a house w/ a convicted childmolester then how will I myself be able to stop child abuse of any kind..? After all it was the legal system that you work for that put her there all because they didn't want her to live with a recovering alcoholic. Everytime I left my daughter after visitation she would cry like hell saying, "daddy please don't leave me here"! I felt like going to the nearest liquor store and getting tanked but I knew If I'd done that my daughter would be fatherless. It's only by the love and grace of God that I am still here and sober today.. If you wanna know, I look at the legal system with the same contempt that I look at Gertrude with.. The legal system looks at it like, well we'll just let it ride and see what happens,, so she's got 7 kids and only 3 spoons and no stove.. You just can't replace that "motherly love" and If she gets with a convicted childmolester, well we'll just see what happens It's easy for ppl like Leroy K. New to say,"well we all failed Sylvia" because they want the public to police and do their job so they can "pass the buck" when their ideas fail.. It's kind of like letting the economy go deep into the shithole and then try doing something to help it while the first lady hires ppl to play with the dog while she goes shopping for expensive antiques to furnish the whitehouse with. Then has the gull to come on national TV and tell it in a documentory on the whitehouse. You know we sit and we talk about how great our american values are and we should be the example for the whole world to follow while we spend trillions of dollars killing ppl for not sharing our beliefs while our own ppl are starving.. I am ashamed and detested I guess I should have went door to door asking the neighbors to call the police if they heard anything out of the ordinary were my daughter was concerned.. Is that how it's done? I say that they should investigate a judge that would be sypathetic to ppl with sex crimes for they may be doing the same horible shit themselves..! We need to start at the top levels of government and remove those that don't have our best interest at heart then we can maybe make a difference in the big picture.

Hello, everybody, back from my holiday today and I hope you all had a good time. As to what Tim said about children wanting to stay with parents who mistreat them - that's something I can fully confirm. There IS a theory about why, too, based on classic psychoanalysis. Not being loved by your parents - or being treated as if you were all wrong, impossible to love - is something you cannot accept. you want to prove to them you are worth loving and you can be the child they want you to be - but for that, you need to stay with them. Maybe that, too, had to do with Sylvia staying with Gertrude when she could have left, I don't know. Sylvia was not her daughter but something unfathomable seems to have gone on between them. Greetings!

Hi Stephen and Kathleen, I know that with my daughter, it was hurtful when my ex filed for change-of-custody. I couldn't imagine life without her and it really threw a wrench in the routine that had developed with school, sports, friends and stuff like that.. I hated my ex when she first did that, but I have to tell ya after time past, I realized she is my daughters mother and they love each other. I may say that my ex was a bad wife, but she IS a good mother for my girl. I don't agree with everything she teaches or says , but I've learned that my daughter is a well rounded happy child that does love both parents and I guess thats what it's all about.

thats just it, the courts are not concerned.. my ex split up with her husband in question after 5 years and went back to live with her parents. my ex got hooked on meth and went missing.. my daughter chose to live where she didn't have rules which was with her grandparents. everytime I got involved they would undo everything and nothing got accomplished I've even turned her grandparents in to child protection for letter my daughter live with her boyfriend at the age of 15.. My daughter now lives with her boyfriend at the age of 17,,, she's not even out of high school.. There is nothing I can do,,, the courts told me that I can have custody of her at the age of 14 yes while in the mean time being exposed to God knows what.. I see my daughter if and when she desides to come around,, which ain't often My ex had a major mental problem and still does compounded by a horrific addiction to meth.. I have many times hoped she'd die and I didn't care how or why... !

I met Lisa in early Jan. 1990 and my daughter was born in April 1991... I didn't know exactly how Lisa was till months after we met.. Started off with her being locked up for shop lifting and I her father and I went to bail her out and while in the process her dad tells me this isn't the first time. I had her friends informing me that she had stollen things from them and so on.. I tried to break things off with her after several months and then she informs me that she is pregnant.. We moved in together when my daughter was 3 yrs old. then we lived together for a yr and half.. was something happening every day,, catastrofic crap,, never a dull moment with that wacko..! She was a major slut and when we split up for a week during this time she screwed the mantainance man for the appartments.. She partied just about every night till the early morning hours,,, never knew if she'd come home or not.. She kept beer in the fridge knowing I could have been tempted, she didn't care.. I ended up getting enough and I told her to leave and we split up for good... Thats when she met this guy with the sex crime conviction and they were getting married after knowing eachother for only two weeks.. I learned of this guys conviction through one of Lisa's friends NOT Lisa herself.. Anyway,, they are together for maybe 5 years and then they split... She then gets with this guy she met at my daughter's softball games.. Ends up he was a major crackhead and got her hooked right off.. My daughter lived with them for a while Lisa was being beat on reg by this lunitic.. They moved back with her parents and the addiction got worse,,, I didn't know about the meth problem at this time.. They were at wits end with Lisa and wanted me to step in and be a father as they called it,, then when I did they'd act like I didn't have a right to do so and would undo everything I did ... mental problems ran all through that family..! I eventually gave up I warned the courts that Lisa was no different then that bitch Susan Smith, the one that drown her own kids... They just looked at me with their mouth open like I was nuts or something.. Lisa was and is a manipulating self serving evil no good devil dog and I hope she goes back to prison or just goes away.. Lisa would disapear for several weeks and come back home to her parents and they'd welcome her with open arms then Lisa would steal everything my daughter owned for crack and disapear once more only to be let back in months later.. I try not to speak to them anymore if I can keep from it.. Many hard feelings but you just can't deal with ignorant ppl ... They took my daughter and exposed her to the very worst and didn't give my feelings one bit of concern... I could really care less what happens to that whole family they helped make my life a living hell on earth.. My message to the courts and JUDGE JAMES PAYNE is " you are a waste of good tax payers money and you are a disgrace to your profession and a threat to the goodness of mankind..!

I shouldn't have said that,,, it not her fault she's nuts .. I just get really pissed when I think about everything she's put my daughter and me through.. Theres hope for everyone I hope she gets some

I was never married to my daughter's mom... Kathleen, nice to see you and thank you for the kind words about Meg

Hi, Stephen, sure that is a horrible story - looks like your daughter is safer living with her boyfriend than with her mother or her mother's family, unless he's a crackhead, too. Seems to me, all you can do is make her know you are there for her and she will turn to you sooner or later. And if you can, welcome her boyfriend into your family so she won't feel she has to choose between the two of you. She needs to feel and to see she has a place in your life, otherwise she won't claim it. I'll keep thinking of you and hope this new year brings good things to you and Meg.

Thank you Johnny, I havent seen her mentioned so I wondered..

Hi, everybody, somewhere on this board or somewhere else Kathe said that baby Gertrude was the luckiest of all, having got adopted and being something to do with gynacology - what is the 'English word again, obstetrician? Kathe and Stephen, is everything allright? It' been a while since I read any of you. Greetings!

I just got tired of every wild bill heacock reading 640 pages of a story and telling me I have no life

Stephen, I' agree with Vickiep-2. Don't let other peoples comments determine if you stay here or not. Being that I am the target of your last entry, please don't let that stop you. I did apologize several times to you for my comments, because I thought they seemed aimed specificly at you. that was never my intention. people obviously enjoy your insite, so please continue. Again I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else.

Stephen, I also agree. As you know I arrived with a pretty 'one sided' attitude towards things and over the months I have learned a lot from you. I also like your posts because you have a very cool writing style which I enjoy! It seems to me that the folks who have time to sit and read our last years worth of conversation may be the ones with no lives.

Tim, I was not referring to you, just to the last post. I have been to busy to check this forum much lately but what I did read from you was informative and I enjoy reading everyones posts. Also, as you know, much of the negative and personal attacks involved me and another poster. Anyway, somebody at some point said 'get a life' and I did not think that it was you. Hope all is well for everyone! I leave for the Sundance Film Festival in the morning.

hey guys,me again. I just read house of evil, and i swear its VERY DISTURBING has anyone read the basement? is it better or worse than house of evil? i really waNT to read it but I cant find it anywhere.

Hi Kaptain Kebo, ill try. it seems like a very interesting book. id love to read milett's opinion of what sylvia's thoughts were. i'm obssesed with this case.

hey guys! ive got questions-i know jenny wasnt abused as bad as sylvia was, but i was wondering about her situation at the baniszewskis.how bad did jenny get it? i know at first both girls were abused, but when the mistreatment focuses on sylvia did everyone just forget about jenny?

Hi cammie, Yeah, I do know about Dorothy Dixon and it does have many similarities to Sylvia. Other cases that remind you of Sylvia's case are, "The Kokomo, Indiana Torture Case" and The murder of Shanda Sharer.

Cammie, from what I have read and I am no expert on this crime but it seems that Sylvia alone was pretty much the perfect victim, wrong place/wrong time (as John Jr. put it) and Jenny was not victimized or humiliated as was Sylvia, unless you factor in the torture of seeing your sister being abused constantly. You know how chemistry between people can work. Sylvia's fate was such a tragedy that we still feel sorrow about it 44 years after the fact. Have you seen the 'House footage' on youtube?(I assume that it is still there) Very sad and creepy. Does anyone have any update on Paula?

thanks kaptain kebo. poor sylvia, i think the reason why she took it all was because of jenny.she didn't want her to get hurt.

Cammie, I'll go with you. I'll also chip in for gas money.

I agree , especially about that movie being an illusion. In that movie or even "girl next door", they show the houses freshly painted, neighbors out trimming the bushes, and that was far from what they had there. Even the Baniszewskis house in the movie showed them having furiture and beds, when they had to sell off those things for money. The kids were even sent out to steal or beg from the neighborhood for food. According to Johnny Baniszewski the family moved 8 times in the 3 years that the parents had divorced. I believe that is a horribly sad way for children to start out in life, of course, but you can't use that as an exuse to forgive them for what they've done. After all there were and are alot of good people that are very intelligent and responsible in that neighborhood-and ones like it, who just fell on hard times. Even the less educated or responsible people don't necessarily live in such conditions. ( 3 spoons and no stove.) And they don't commit crimes such as torture and murder! If that's the case, lets let Manson out, he had a bad childhood. Also let the child rapists and murderers that were molested as children out because what should we have expected from them. Isn't it funny how they find God after they're caught? I know some will say they found God before the crime was commited, but I question if it was God they found and if it was God, I don't think the message stuck! (Especially "Love thy neighbor" and "Do to others as you would have them do to you.")

I love the way O Haver took the liberty of casting that hottie(Keener) as Gertie. For crying out loud that is about as accurate as having Mister Rogers playing Manson in Helter Skelter. People who are not familiar with the facts are so misled. Keener's tail would have made GB a Sunday face. And the babe that played Paula,right. We all know that Paula was a hefty bully that was not averse to throwing blows to enforce her sick twisted agenda. She busted her hand with her "disciplinary action" and seemed quite proud to announce it to anyone within earshot. Poor casting. Poor interpretation of the facts. If anyone out there wants the real story they can check out the Newspaper archive. It is a website that has scanned and downloaded Newspapers from many of the more prominent cities. I think The Indy Star has started to participate. Unfortunately it costs to access the papers. I paid for a trial and was able to read the daily accounts of the trial. There are alot of pics that were in the newspaper accounts that I have never seen printed elsewhere. This story was so huge when it happened. Our society was not as desensitized in 1965 as it is now. I have a question for anyone who happens to live in the Indy area. Does anyone remember a case back in October of 1970 where a small boy named Jerry Michael Bayles was delivering newspapers on the near westside close to Central State hospital and was abducted and murdered? They found his naked body in Henry County and to this day it remains an unsolved crime. I was friends with the small boys relatives that lived in Tipton County just north of Indpls. This case is also one that leaves you scratching your head as to why or how people can be so callous concerning human life. Just another example of a lack of respect for human life which is really what this blog addresses.

Cammie< You are spot on. Ellen Page not only had the look,her acting was was incredible. She showed what a capable actress she has become. He emotion had me wanting to time travel to rescue Sylvia from her nightmare. I also thought the girl who played Jenny was accurate. Some people have been harsh to criticize her for not reporting the abuse which could have saved her sister. My heart goes out to her because she was so traumatized and feared repercussion if she even considered telling anyone. She suffered pains we will never know with the demons haunting her thoughts the rest of her life. It is easy for us to be armchair quarterbacks and say we would have done this or that, however until we are placed in a situation like this you never know. I also feel the girls were convinced that as bad as it was, their parents would be home soon so they just needed to wait things out.

I just saw the movie An American Crime for the first time today. I had looked at it a few weeks ago at Blockbuster and passed it over b/c I was almost afraid to watch it. Finally I did take it out and felt sick throughout most of it. There were parts I couldnt even watch, which I'm sure is not unusual with this story. I was unbelievably disturbed by the roles of the children in this family, with the exception of the baby, who was too young to know what was going on. I understand all the arguments regarding family dynamics, learning, fear etc. However, there was STILL right and wrong, even in the 60's when we didnt have as many support systems for child abuse. I found myself enraged during this movie. I even found myself thinking "How can I write to this mother in prison and tell her what I think of her?" I was almost disappointed to find she had died and I wouldnt be able to at least write her a letter and tell her what a waste of a human life I thought she was. I would like to think I would have told someone what was going on, but I did not live in the situation. I am MOST troubled by the actions of the neighborhood children, the ones who came in to the house as though this poor girl were some sort of exhibition or experiment. These were not kids who had to live with the crazy Gertrude and needed to fear her wrath if they spoke out. How many of these kids went home to normal families? Went to school every day? Could have told a teacher, or even sent an anonymous note to the police? I dont know if the movie exaggerates the amount of "outsiders" that came in to be part of this horror story, but it certainly seems like there were a lot of them portrayed. None of them have any kind of excuse under the sun for not speaking out. I would be curious to know how some of those other kids feel now as they look back on the decisions that they made.

i like this film i just cant understan why gertie tortured sylvia but not jenny

Jenny was tortured. She got the belt often early in the game. However,she was tortured mentally which can be very traumatic. remember she was told to physically abuse her sister also. If she didn't she would have been beaten as well. Can you even imagine how horrible she felt when she was forced to get physical with her sister,whom she loved,looked up to and admired. The poor girl wasn't healthy enough to fight for her sister. Also being forced to watch the continual abuse of her sister would have been enough to rip her heart out. As i mentioned before Sylvia's torture was short lived compared to the hurt Jenny endured for the rest of her life.

jenny was also abused. people didnt see that in aac. i also read somewhere that she was used as a "taste tester" and had things burn in her mouth.and she was tortured emotionally. every single day she had to live with seeing her sister get burned, beaten, "played with", and most likely for the rest of her life she had ugly flashbacks about it. i read somewhere that she would shake at the mere mention of GErtie. her life wasnt that good after sylvia's murder.it plagued her for the rest of her life. while paula and the other kids had good lives. it sucks!

Krishna, I was using "in the game" as a fugure of speech for early in the ordeal. Jessa, Jenny was forced to slap and punch her in the face. If she refused they were going to beat her. I believe they even tried to get her to restrain Sylvia while she was being branded.

Not to mention the fact that Jenny laughed at Sylvia during the first coke-bottle incident. I think it was forced as well.

Yes, it says so in "The Basement" by Kate Millett. It's a good read.

I too Have a message from Sylvia's Older Sister, Dianna.. She is my Mom, She is devastated that people are going to Steve Hostetter like he truly knew what was going on. Anything he has said here is public Knowledge. As for him knowing Lester likens and working for him I know for a fact that in 1974-1977 Lester worked selling mobile homes in ohio, he was not at that time in the carny business. so Steve Hostetter is not being truthful. I understand some people like to draw attention to themselves in any form possible to be popular. But you really shouldn't try so hard when there are people out there that know the truth.... If you really want the truth about how things were I can relate any questions back to Dianna and she can fill in the blanks. Dianna is Sylvia's older sister she if anyone would know. I am trying to convince Dianna to write a book from her view, but she doesn't think it would be of any use. I think if just for therapy sake it would be a wonderful release for her. But Please be careful to whom you address questions as there are many wolves in sheeps clothing.

Kris'tal, Your mother is another one of the victims in the horrific crime. She has had to live her life knowing her baby sister was being systematically murdered one blow at a time by a bunch of unsupervised lunatics somewhat close to where she lived. In 1965, it was unfathomable to think of a group of people abusing another person to this extent. As I mentioned in a post above, our society was not as desensitized to crime as we are now. These things just did not happen. Even the neighbors who heard the commotion probably just thought it was the kids fighting and arguing. I am sure that yelling,screaming,bickering,fighting... was commonplace in the Baniszewski house. We know Gertrude didn't hesitate to use a belt,paddle... I am also sure that the Baniszewski kids got their share of whippings although it appears when the Likens girls showed up that abuse was piled upon them. We all probably had a house in our neighborhood where the parents were either working alot or more lax than our own. When a bunch of kids get together unsupervised it can get quite unruly. Still no excuse. After all these years it still shocks me that no one ever stood up a said enough is enough. What is happening here is wrong. where was the compassion? This lack of compassion is why all of the perpetrators should have spent the rest of their lives in jail. I sure your mother was not aware of the severity of the abuse. The blame falls solely on the perpetrators. I pray your mother does not blame herself.

What is there to misunderstand? Dianna gets very upset by people "claiming to know" facts about her family that are simply untrue. Why would you go on for sooooooo many postings when, desribing Lester, Sylvia, and whatever else he wants to throw in, when his very first posting was a lie? Do you not know that there is somebody out there who would know if it's true or not? Even Lester, when asked (about his rigs) just for confermation asked; "Why would you asked such a stupid question?" It just makes no sense to try to gain "fame" or "popularity" over such a tragedy. That family has had to live with this pain for over 40 years, and people who spread such untruths only make things worse.

Sigh, I knew the whole 'polite' thing would come up. I'm really curious about something.....If you had such a tragedy happen in you family wouldn't you want to make sure your sisters death wasn't exploited by people looking to make a buck or receive notoriety? Wouldn’t you have enough sorrow weighing down your heart that things like this would just be too much to deal with? I believe I was very civil here; All I'm trying to do is protect my Mom. Dianna is the sweetest woman you will ever know. She has the heart and soul of a child, gentle and fragile. I am her protector and I will go to great lengths to make sure she is unharmed; I wish I could have done the same for Sylvia. I receive the phone calls from Mom in the middle of the night when She is crying because of things like this, I listen and calm her so she can go back to sleep. What kind of daughter would I be if I didn’t stand up for her? I never got to meet Sylvia But I know from what Mom says she was Just as Gentle and fragile as Her. I feel protecting Sylvia’s memory is my job as well. My Mom wants to thank all of you that have been touched by this tragedy and genuinely have Her Family’s best interest at heart, when you say things in love she cries at the idea that there are real people that do care, Every kind word helps soften the pain even if it is just a little. I, as well send my gratitude for your words of compassion and grace. I pray that God sends blessings your way and Keeps tragedy far from your home.

I remember reading posts on another site (can't remember which one) and Stephen was asking if Lester ever worked the "Lake County Fair" in crown point,in. He said he worked there as a teen and was wondering if perhaps the man he worked for was Lester. I think he put 1 and 1 together and got 3. He did state that he saw pictures of Lester from newspaper clippings earlier on this blog, so he should have realized than that he was mistaken. Whats sad is that Dianna was hurt by those actions and says he's friends with Stephanie Baniszewski, along with Kathy, that make every excuse they can think of to make it seem like they had nothing to do with it. At least Kathy says she's, "not excusing anyone because there's no excuse." Right after a 2 paragraph EXCUSE. But these are people that believe O.J's innocent! The one question I would want to ask Dianna is, why did the girls stay with the Baniszewskis and not their Gramma or herself? Was it Jenny and Sylvia's idea to stay with them because of the children to play with? Maybe Gramma was too elderly and Dianna just married, or something like that? I just wondered. Nobody could have imagined those Baniszewski's were soooo nuts! Also to Kris'Tal, Are you one of the nephews that Stephen claims to have met? Best wishes to all.

Are you talking about Kathe? I haven't read on this board since before the movie came out, I will, but I haven't yet. I started at the beginning, which is how a ran across Hostetter, and I have an email he sent to a friend with his ridiculous conditions for pictures of the "death house". That was way back at the beginning of our research, but when I saw the post, the name rang a bell. But, back to Kathe, she is really Dennis Jr's wife! I am the one who put her in touch with the attorney, who in turn, put her through to Stephanie. I could have sent her right through to Stephanie, but it is a very sensitive issue, and I thought the attorney could prepare her first. Kathe has been given a hard time, I don't know if it was on this board, but it is unfair! She really is who she said she is, she has been connected with her husband's birth family. She is a good person, and doesn't deserve the mean things people have said to her. She's only looking for answers, and whatever way she has to get them is her business. She has the right to know her husbands hereditary conditions, which in turn will probably be her sons. I do consider her a friend, and I wish people would not be so mean.

angie, can you please ask Dianna if the Baniszewski kids and the neighborhood kids abused jenny, too? i've read a rumor somewhere that during her stay at the baniszewskis,the kids would hide jenny's steel leg brace and made her trip while she tried to find it. Is this true?

and Kris'Tal too, are these rumours true? and there is SO much I need to know about this case.

Thanks Angie, but I really don't want to upset anyone who's involved personally. No questions that I have just for pure curiosity is worth causing anymore pain to this family. Also, I don't mean to say that Kathe isn't who she says she is, I just don't believe her motives are as pure as she says. I do hope Denny's health has improved. I would like to ask YOU, since you seem to have talked to Stephanie, do you believe that her hands are clean of that crime? I know charges were dropped back than, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she was proven innocent, just that they couldn't necessarily prove guilt. Does anyone, even Kris'Tal believe Stephanie is clean or that any of the younger kids should be forgiven, because of their ages at the time? Again, please don't upset anyone. I just wonder if they have ever talked about it with you?

Hi Angie and Kris'Tal, I'm so sorry that Dianna is crying over what has been written here. I know some of the earlier post are outright mean. I wrote #618 that sb referred to, and I was outraged at the personal attacts that were going on without any concern for the Likens family or friends. I do hope that this doesn't turn into a "let's hate Stephen" blog though. That wouldn't be fair either. I don't know what's true or not, about selling the pictures or his working with Lester... but he does know alot about the case and alot of people like having him here. I don't know, I just hope the spirit of what this site is suppose be about isn't lost.

and if things cant go right between the bs and the likenses I dont blame the Likens family! if this sort of thing happens to anyone i love i would NEVER forgive the person who did it!!!

I have read the whole discussion, but never posted anything on this board until now. Kathleen: I just want to say that you are a very sensible person with a lot of insight, and some of the things you have written on this board are really quite interesting (for instance, your theories about how Gertrude "transferred" her anger to Sylvia instead of Paula). KrysTal: please read #709, written by Kathleen. I also don't believe Stephen told a deliberate lie, but honestly thought he had worked with Lester at one time. Of course he should have expressed that a little more carefully, and explained that he wasn't 100% sure, but it is human to make a mistake, isn't it? As for Kathe, she seems to be a very brave and honest woman and I don't know why "sg" questions her motive in speaking up.

OMG people, do you not have enough facts yet. Does knowing the exact minute that Sylvia died even make a difference? It does not change anything to know of every burn, cut, bruise. You are talking about a tragic death here, not about a car that you are thinking about purchasing. The Likens family has suffered enough. Should they have to read repeatedly all the detailed descriptions. Kris'Tal, if your mother is upset at the posts, please do not encourage her to write a book, it will just bring on more questions. You may want to encourage her to speak out about Child Abuse, but I know from experience, it will have to be on her terms, not because people are curious. I have posted on the Mark Gibbon site and do recognize a few of you. I can assure you that anybody that has suffered abuse, it is a horrific thing to live through and most that did still do not speak out about it because of shame. The Likens family now have that tragedy to live with, it is theirs, nobody has the right to exploit it any further. It happened and it cannot be changed now, but going forward, each and every person that has posted here has the responsibility to be aware that this still happens. As Tim stated (625) there are signs, I know them, do you? If you do not, then use this site to educate yourselves on how to spot them, ask questions about that, not about being brought up from the basement, put in the tub, brought to the bed. Why does that even matter at this point? And yet, I think I just read about 50 posts trying to verify that sequence (why?????). If you feel the need to write, then write to your government, make yourselves heard. Be proactive, not reactive. Just let you know, I am not going to ever apologize for this post. If it offends anybody, then get mad. But get mad that child abuse is a reality, and still continues to happen!!!!

Just to let you know Kathleen, I've read the whole thing now, and I have to say, I've really enjoyed reading your posts. You seem to have a unique and logical way of looking at this story. As for Stephen, yes I snapped at the beginning, but that's because of the outragous conditions he sent in an email to my friend. She forwarded it to me. So I hope he does take the advise of #618. Please don't write that book. Maybe Stephanie has let him know how bad his "memory" has failed him. The only connection he really has to the Sylvia Likens case is he has been inside the house. Other than that, the tales of the Hobbs, McGuires, Lester, etc. are untrue. And it upset me to see Dianna get upset. I'm sorry Kathleen, but like I said, 1 or 2 posts could be a mistake, but not all he has said. Well, thank you all for the entertainment, it's been fun! P.S. Kebo, I can see your posts on the Yuku site, I hope you'll give it another chance. Angie

Oh so they are your only interests in this board? Well, Kathe I can understand because she tells the truth, but Stephen, I hope you keep encouraging him on that book, because I would like to ride with him as he laughs all the way to the bank! I'm sorry, I am really not a confrontational person, and I'm not trying to be. BUT I do have something against people who are not honest. I can't help it! I am a person who can't look a person in the eye and lie to them, but I guess over a computer screen, you don't have to face anyone, huh?

Kathleen, I know Kathe (and others from this site) are posting on another thread because the tone that this one has taken. I won't divulge which site they're on because it's not my place to do so. I'm sure they still read here though, so I hope they contact you via your e-mail. They also quit posting on "mark gribben's" site for the same reason. Unfortunately these sites are more about personal attacks then about Sylvia. Like I said, I'm sure they still read these posts from time to time so maybe if this thread gets back on track, they'll return.

Hi, Wylma - looks like you just saw the film and didn't read up much about it yet. Sylvia's brothers were with their parents working as carnies respectively were working elsewhere and one of them (Danny, I believe) came to visit once or twice before things got really bad. Diana lived in the same town, bought food for them on several occasions - that, too, before it got too bad and without one of them or both telling her much - after that, she tried to see her sisters at the B. house at least once and couldn't get past Gertrude. Also, she had not been married for long, yet, according to Dean her divorce was in preparation. so I guess she had problems and worries of her own, and she was still only 18, poor soul. Practically a child herself and certainly entitlled to protection from others instead of having to protect someone herself.

NO

this is really crazy - people fighting their personal fights on here. Also a lot of the information is worthless. Who babysat who, who went to school with who, some people are talking about their family problems here - who cares. If you really want to pay homage to Sylvia Likens memory just leave her alone.

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have now put up the complete trial transcript on the Yuku board, along with new versions of the evidence photographs that I made. Pass the word around. http://forsylvialikens.yuku.com/topic/133

Sorry to hear about your Grandmother. Thanks for the info.

When were you seven? Or, when did she die? If you don't mind me asking...

richard hobbs lived at 210 S. 5th. ave. Beech Grove IN

Angie claims to be Diana's daughter, what I'd like to know Angie is where exactly did Diana move to right after Sylvia's passing? Do you have any brother's and if so what is their first names ? I assume you are a Shoemaker? Please respond as soon as possible because all this information has been documented as public record and I'd hate to think your looking it up in order to respond. thank you

Hello Mr. Hostetler, you're back! I'm sorry, you have me confused with Krystal, who said she was Dianna's daughter. I'm merely Dianna's FRIEND, and I speak with her daily. So, my information would not be of any importance to you, frankly it's none of you're business. But, no, I'm no relative of anyone ever mentioned here. I am from Indianapolis, where the crime occurred, not from California, and I only post the truth, or what I believe to be true, not a bunch of crap to be a "know it all" or "go to person" for info. You should know Sylvia's relatives are alive, and they know what you say is not true. Also, if you knew the Hobb's in Beech Grove, you must have known older Hobb's, because I believe Ricky testified that he lived at 310 N. Denny St. all of his life. I enjoyed your "fish tale" though.

judgeing from the other sites you've already wrecked with your half backed lies and contradictions you seem to enjoy going around pretending to be someone your not.. You were laughed off that other site because you got caught and exposed as a liar. everything I talked about on this site was truthful to the best of my knowlege.. originally I wasn't sure if I should come forward and talk about my experiance on this subject but needed to talk non the less... I found several good souls that would listen and I started to talk about everything I knew about this subject... I needed to for my own sake If the conversation got to detailed for your thin skin you shouldn't have attended or read the conversation.. you have that choice you say we shouldn't be talking about the case because there are still family members still alive but that doesn't stop you from chiming in and speading malicious lies to further your own self rightous agenda.. If you were a friend to Diana you'd know something but you have never offered anything but lies and insults .. You lied about many things conserning myself and your name can't be googled which is no mistake makes me know you are very calculating.. you are most likely one of those misguided religious fanatics busy body control freak.. As you can see from the looks of this once healthy populated site that no one can stand you around.. They must see the same thing I do. I won't exchange words with you from here on because there is no point in hearing you repeat the same lies over and over and then after time your confronted and you change your story.. It's all written down here but I knew it was just to much for you to skim through which is why I waited so long to confront you.. You should do yourself a favor and get a life! this one just you busted once again

wow! lol Angie, if he only knew! hope to see you and Dianna tommorrow, dont forget to call me.......

I must say that I hate drama because it could very dull sometimes. After reading the review I know that this is a definite stay away for me.

I wish it was public knowledge of the whereabouts of any of Gertrude's remaining children, and of any of the other neighborhood children who participated in and observed the repeated torture of Sylvia Likens. I would line up to beat the $hit out of them myself, for all of the horrible, vile, repulsive, disgusting things they did to that girl and her sister, and for watching it and doing NOTHING or saying NOTHING! May they ALL burn slowly in hell!

I agree. SoldierGirl, I have kept silent for so long. I have read comments and ask myself, is this what Sylvia wanted? Gertrude has created so much hatred even after her death after all of these years. Has she won? Does it matter who is who, and who knew who, or who didn't. Why is there so much malice here? Sylvia, I'm sure, is not happy with what has been going on blogs like this one.

Lol.... selling pictures of the house? Is this a joke? Who is selling pictures? There is so many pictures of the inside of this house, why would someone buy them? Is this a joke?

Oh, and by the way, he has over 40 pictures from inside... Guess what his price was???? $100.00 FOR EVERY 3 PHOTO'S I knew I had proof of this, I was just too lazy to go back and find it! Now I hope you all see Mr. Hostetter for who he really is!

what about the scum that left their 16 yr old kid with a house full of animals while they go exploit people in a carnival today they'd be in jail for neglect you all need a life I see everyone here as liars

Fascism: Severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. 2 people gave a speech in which they said: "you are either with us or against us" those 2 people were Adolf Hitler and George W. Bush.. I see all of you as this

rent the movie "sicko" and watch the special features as well. It is a fine line we walk between full out genocide and dropping our people out on the curb like so much trash for not being able to pay for health care. and you people think you can push your ideas onto people of all nations by going to war when you have gangs in your own country that will kill you for giving the wrong look back. you are little natzi's in your own right although you are currently a world power there will be one day when you yourselves will be living in a third world country with no ability to protect yourselves . you will be your own undoers

Actually, you are making some sense now. Yes, Americans can generally be clueless deathsuckers, although the majority are against the war. What Country do you call home?

Oh god, this used to be a great blog. How far it has gone down, and in so short a time!

Welcome to America Aydyn, you must remember that the crime ocured in Indiana, so if Paula had killed Sylvia while smoking a joint within 500 feet of a church she would likely still be in jail.

The power of Christ compels you.

We will gather, again this year, to honor the memory of Sylvia, at her Willard Park memorial, on Oct. 26th. Time is not sure yet, we need some suggestions. Anyone from Indy, who wants to participate, give us some suggestions on a time of day.

I will be there Angie!

I have followed this horrible story for many years. And what I don't understand is the lack of culpability on everyones part. Gertrude the kids and the families. Silvias sister new something was wrong, but she never follows up. Her sister Jenny told her, I can't talk to you or I will get in trouble? She never went to the police when Gertrude told her to leave the property? She recieved a letter saying that something was not right, And she dismisses it as a lie, no follow up? I'm sorry but the neighbors new the sister new, the priestnew and a nurse new. Times were different yes, but not that different.

So assume there was no letter. but A red flag should have gone up when, her own sister saw her on the street, and commented that if she spoke with her she would be in trouble. Question, you go to see your sisters and are told to go away or the police will be called, you then just don't follow up? Answer, you demand to see them or YOU will call the police. Believe me I am not placing blame on anyone other then those invovled in the beatings and death of this poor child. but we must all stop turning our heads. Act on your hunches, get involved, ask questions and call the authorites even if we are not sure.

I do not know what Dianna's relationship with her parents was, and for that matter her relationship with her sisters, but she must have had some connection, or she would not have made a visit to the Braniszewski household. She was turned away by Gertrude and told not to come back, RED FLAG? She received a letter from her sisters stating the punishments and that Sylvia was being blamed for things she did'nt do. RED FLAG? She felt it neccesary at the trial to state that she had tried to see her sisters but was turned away by Gertrude (NOT HER PARENTS). I really do feel sorry for all the pain that Dianna must have endured throughout life. A am sure that she wishes she could back to that time. Her discord with her parents may be so, (lets face it they left their children with someone they did not know). But the fact still remains that people new and did nothing. A young beautiful life was taken in the most incomprehensible manner imaginable, while others stood by and allowed it to happen. Dianna has suffered this is true, but her suffering should not be compared to that of Sylvia's.

If Dianna could have ever imagined something so horrific was happening she surely would have stopped it. I'm sure she knew that her siblings living conditions were far less than ideal, but c'mon, really, who, in there wildest horrific imagination could think that something so severe and unusual was occurring. People need to instead take a look at, and focus their anger towards the people who rallied for Gerties parole, and the wacko, nut job parole board members who so easily complied to the idea of releasing a child torturing, murderous monster back into society based on her bible study habits. Many of these people are still around Indy.

Hey Stephen Hostetler, I find your posts the most honest and interesting. I am currently obsessed with this case and would like to talk more with some one from the area who actually knew people involve. Please feel free to email me back. Conlup@msn.com. look forward to hearing from you.

And roselee you know what they say about assuming ...... and just remember.....there are alot of us family members who live with this and have alot of hurt and anger still inside us.... so please stop your careless assumptions towards my family!!!!!!

Nicely said SIS!!! any questions from you assuming people?????

Angie, Don't be sorry these things had to come to light…. Lies breed contempt....It is a matter Of Diana’s Honor here that we stand up for her. Have you not heard the old adage "Don't shoot the messenger" You were concerned. You felt it was needed to know.. PLEASE feel free to enlighten Robert or I on ANY and ALL tales you might hear I will come to the aid of my Mom as a Knightess in shinning armor! And Robert will come to her aid Sirens blazing Be Blessed knowing you stand on the side of light against the tyranny of evil doer’s I feel blessed knowing you are out there ever diligent to protect her. Have a glorious day Kris

Christine Conroy, Stephen Hostetter is a total fraud. He knows no one and never did know anyone. Avoid him.

I am going to start off with "for once my brother Robert (Bobby) beat me to the punch" to finally express how we have felt our entire lives for what our Mom has had to go through. It was always just the 4 of us for so many years, My Mom My Grandpa My Little Brother and Me and NO ONE KNOWS everything as to the extent that this has affected my family and mostly my Mom, Diane. A tragedy like this does not start or END with the death of my Aunt Sylvia, who I never got to know and love, my loss. Something like this has a domino reaction that only those of us that lived the life will ever completely understand. I am not going to give anyone the satisfaction of knowing details because frankly, ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!! My day started with a call from my mom sobbing at what her dear friend had shared with her about the nonsense of a letter she received but ignored. Lisa Lee #769 you dont know what the f#@k your talking about. This is how crap gets started and I would like to thank Darrin #771 for clearing that up on my moms behalf. Because I was at work all day and didnt have a chance to read this crap in here, I called upon my brother to help me defend our mother, which he did better than I could have done myself, not easy for me to say. I absolutely wont tolerate my mother being talked about as if she was too busy to help Sylvia when I know she would have done anything and everything to be there for her sister, just like she was there for Jenny my whole life. I will not elaborate anymore but I will be watching what is said about her in the future and handle things from there. For those of you who do know Mom, your friendship means the world to her and I am so happy she talks and opens up for you. I think you have discovered how unique and loving she really is. NOW EVERYONE ELSE--KEEP MY MOMMA'S NAME OUCHA MOUTH!!!!

Ross, Thank you for that. It is good to hear that the way my mom is portrayed by some actually IS as wrong as it seems. The first time we experienced this was when I was a teenager and we happened upon Kate Millet's book, The Basement, and she referred to my mom as an amiable midtown hussy (close enough) and how that affected her. That is just an example of the hurt that can take place when it is unjustified. As my mom, I didnt want her called that and as my mom, she didnt want to be called that. The "false light" you mentioned is exactly what had my mom SO upset Saturday morning. The thought of people actually thinking it was remotely possible that she could have helped Sylvia and didnt is what cut her to her core. As far as Robert, PROUD is an understatement!! His story, even though I have heard it years ago, brought tears to my eyes again. I think it was very clear at the message he was trying to get across, I got it loud and clear. The fact that he and I have been able to work hard and become successful, good parents, and overall well adjusted members for our communities is a testament to Diane, Mom. I think she did a great job of making this happen with very limited resources and knowledge of how to really make that happen. We are very PROUD of her as well. Thank you again and I am sure that Bobby and Kris feel the same way.

Dianna exposed Steven Hostetter as a fraud a while back. The question of why is eternal. We'll never know in this life why those people did what they did.

I haven't been here in a while and I see we have gotten some peoples attention. Let me first say that my sister and I grew up in a trailer and my mother still resides in one part time during her work week and then in her lovely retirement home when she finally hangs em up. If the truth be known I am positive I ate ice cream and watched Jerry Springer many many times in ONE of the trailers I grew up in. My wife, jokingly, refers to me as white trash sometimes . Not trying to downplay the trailer life. My deceased step dad left my mother, his wife, enough money to provide us with a wonderful brand new double wide trailer that Debbie and I grew up in. Now that, that is out of the way. I am a very active member of my community, people come to me for advice and comfort. I am a very compassionate loving man. I have kids and an unbelievable wife. I am involved with my church and I am a very strong believer in my Lord and Savior. However; my mother Dianna is OFF LIMITS!!! I will go to area's that I may later ask the Lord for forgiveness for. I too have been blessed by God with a beautiful home and family. This is about MY family, our losses, and yes the victims here.....THE LIKENS FAMILY. My family did not ask for this. I am just requesting that nothing be said about my mother and what she could have done. And although people may want to know the better side of Sylvia, or what the "true" story of what happened with my family is.....my sister Debbie and I personally don't think it is anyone's business but ours.... why on earth would we give out any type of information? Information turns into questions, accusations, and oh yeah RED FLAGS. Kris answered earlier about the "why didn't Dianna do anything question".......that will be the last true story ever put on this blog, as the true story is priveledged information. One thing that is absolutely awesome about this, is the positive influence that will hopefully come out of this tragic story. It sickens me to know right now, some little boy or girl is being called names, being told shut up, or being yelled at. It sickens me that people have kids and then don't give them all the love they deserve. I love my 2 year old Daughter so much I couldn't imagine ever hurting her or ever protecting her. She is not a burden to me and I adjust my schedule to her. I get home from a 12 hour day at 0400 AM.... my wife and I get up together by 0730, maybe 0800 (if im lucky) and I feed her breakfast while my wife gets her clothes ready for school (3x a week) the other two days, I still wake up at the same time because she is awake and misses me (it's awesome). I'm not looking for a pat on the back, I have just went to so many homes and seen people sleeping all day while their kids are on auto-pilot. I hope that Sylvia's story will make people more aware of RED FLAGS..... because as mentioned before, there are definitly RED FLAGS out there to be seen. Don't hesitate to call the Police when you just don't think something you see is right. Or your neighbor sleeps until noon while there little one roams around all day or, even worse, is locked in some room while the parent sleeps..... please help those that can't help themselves. Law Enforcement is truely a partnership with the community. I am paid to protect human life and those that can't protect themselves and with the communities help, it makes for one excellent team. God Bless Robert

I am not aware of a Jeremy or Lee in our family. If there is some relation to Robert or I, they must be distant relatives. We dont know all of our distant cousins and the ones we were around as children were just from the immediate family. If there are cousins out there that we dont know I would like to know who they are and how the relationship links. Curious why you ask and why you fear the answer. We are very open in our everyday lives just very sensitive when it comes to Mom.

Now call me a no-lifer or somebody who should rent a life, but yes I did it I read all the comments. And only one question is bothering me. It's addressed to Robert, Kris, Andie, Kathe or whoever is somehow related : Do you know where Paula or other Baniszewski children are ? That's it. Don't care how they turned out, what lifes they live or how "cough" TOUGH "cough" it was for them... That shit dont matter now. As some offsprings said there were many speculations which resulted in a whole lot of bullshit, some even tried to take advantage and make a quick buck or become somewhat important. It would be good, if someone would write a book about what really happened. Yes there are testimonies and documents but we all know they lied... Anyway, if by any chance Dianna is reading this, please know that everybody was somehow affected by this tragedy. I don't know why ( I wasn't even born when this happened), but somehow I feel devastated, maybe depressed... Anyway please leave a comment or something if you have any info about Bs' whereabouts ?

Debbie, thanks a lot for answering in so much detail, it’s nice of you to go so much trouble. Far as I see this now, anything further to the matter of Stephen, I should discuss with Stephen himself which I’m ready to do at any given time with the promise of an understanding reception. That is all I can do now but I don’t think I should bother you and your siblings with it - especially not since it is a delicate matter for your Mother. Which brings me to something I should have said before. Whatever I say here, consider none of it a question, at least not as one I expect you or anyone else from your family to answer. What I said to Kathe on this blog goes as well for you all: as you are concerned parties, your privacy has priority over everything else and no sensible person would expect you to give out information, be it about past or present matters or whatever. As to the people who say things that are bound to hurt your mother or you all on her behalf, on this blog or elsewhere, usually it’s people who didn’t go into the matter except superficially. They confound the movie with web bullcrit and web bullcrit with the books and the books with each other. With other people it’s worse, though. My theory is that by blaming someone – anyone they can find – people whose own fears are too strong to bear assure themselves: No, it won’t happen to me. Understandable, perhaps, but inacceptable if it hurts someone else. In my eyes, Dianna has achieved the impossible. Normally, people who suffered what she did, especially when quite young, afterwards perceive the world as a dangerous place where humans are either dangerous or helpless. If that’s the way you feel you can’t help transferring this perception onto your children and they grow up in fear or with aggression against every other human being. Obviously, Dianna managed to raise level-headed, reasonable and strongl children and has given them a lot of love. I cannot imagine how she did it but the fact that she did makes her a white hope – as I ‘m not without fears either. One last thing: A few posts above you referred to Kate Millett describing Dianna as an “amiable midtown hussy”. I remember that quote well. All I could ever lay hands upon was a translation of “The Basement” into German and if you translate back into English the German term used by the translator, it would be “an amiable city gal”. Here it should be noted that “gal” in German is a word you could use tenderly, e. g. to describe a young girl who has a good character but refuses to take shit from anyone or just someone who loves having a good time and forgets more serious things sometimes. Combined with “city”, you’d imagine that young woman in quite some gear and maybe with a lot of make-up (applied more or less skilfully). Unlike “hussy” , it doesn’t have anything insulting to it, though. What I had imagined was an adorable young thing with lots of boys in love with her …

To John, As you stated in your email, don't know what happened to any of the members of the group of people who did this to my Aunt, and as you already said, DON'T CARE. I can only hope they found God while incarcerated and asked for forgiveness. My Mom and Sister would want the same. To Louie, My Grandfather, as stated by my Sister Debbie in earlier posting's, is a loving man who has basically been Debbie and mine's Father figure. He is not perfect, but I do know he always treated us like his little Angels. I will say it is a safe bet that without all the stresses in life he went through and without all of the pressure life gives, I, me, no one else, believes he truley enjoyed being there everyday for us and it gave him great pleasure to be our Father figure. He was not an alcoholic. He has always worked. And he always had a smile. I am sure he had a hard time raising five kids four of which were two sets of twins. Was he perfect, again no he wasn't, but he was and always has been there for me and Debbie. He didn't do homework, he didn't ask about school, he didn't ask if we were ok. He didn't need to, because he could see that his Daughter had done an excellent job. We were happy and that made him happy. He found a way to deal with his pain, regrets, and any guilt he had through the happiness he had with us. Debbie and I have never stopped loving him and he knows that. To All, I will be with my Mom, Dianna, next week. I will be Barbecueing for her and my Dad. We will have laughter and fun. I will probably let her read some of these postings as she is computer illiterate and doesn't own one. We will share tears as we are a very loving and affectionate family (that is the way she raised us). What she doesn't know is I have a big surprise for her. She will undoubtedly cry her eyes out, but she is going to be very happy and excited. I would say what it is, but I don't want her to find out. What better way to spend Valentines day, but with my Beautiful Wife and Daughter, and my Mother. I told her to bring her bathing suit so she can go in our jacuzzi. I am going to try and have her have a glass of red wine, we'll see. Monique and I are making her Rib-eye steaks (she loves it!!), corn on the cob, and Au-gratin potatoes. Goodbye for now, Robert

I am mortified and sadden by the tragic torture and life of Sylvia Likens. Gertrude Baniszweski, her children and her childrens, children and their children have blood on their hands. I am not one to judge but just because someone is white trash does not mean they are going to assault and torture a young girl. I am baffled by the fact that John Baniszweski Jr. aka John Blake turned out to be a Lay Minister- he is not part of God as he torture and brutally attacked Sylvia when he was 12 years old, knowing fully what he did. Why is it when people are evil they turn to the Church and become a minister? It is because they have so many evil doings that they have to compensate to make up for all the bad that they did. The Baniszweski's not matter how much they try to shy away from this tragedy, change their last name, move away will always know that they are disgusting, and vile human beings; animals treat people better. Anyone who is related to this family, no matter how far down the family tree is considered vile and evil. I also think anyone who did absolutely nothing to save this poor child (Sylvia Likens) has blood on their hands. Even though people die, their spirits linger and the ancestors of all the vile people involved will forever be cursed. Anyone who admits to being related to these white trash criminals are forever left with hardships of life. The family cycle does not change, the links are forever connected and you all shall burn in hell.

I'm sorry SouthFlorida, but I take great offense at your posting. I don't recall you here previously so you may not know what many here already do. My husband is baby Denny, Gertrude's last child and he was an infant at the time of Sylvia's murder. He should not be blamed and "forever cursed" as you say. While you say you are not one to judge, clearly that is exactly what you are doing. You are entitled to your opinions; do not get me wrong. I am not providing any excuses for any of what transpired. Obviously, no one should be forced to endure the kind of pain that Sylvia suffered. But to say that anyone related to this family will burn in hell is utterly absurd and narrow-minded. You are saying that my beautiful son born many decades after October 1965 will burn in hell just because he is biologically Gertrude's grandson. Thankfully, your judgment is meaningless. That is for God to do; and I know for a fact that my son is a pure honest soul that will stay in God's house forever.

Well said, Kathe and Kebo! Kebo, we haven't seen you for a while on the Yuku site ... lost the link?

South of Florida, You have no right to say those things about anyone in the family that did not participate in this crime. I have my own feelings about the Baniszweski's, but to blame people that were not involved, is ridiculous. As for John Baniszwesi, he spoke out about the things he did and spent his life trying to help other troubled youth. Kathe you know exactly how I feel about your husband, and I am sorry you have to hear crap like this. South of Florida you should be ashamed of yourself.

I'd never heard of the Sylvia Likens torture and murder before I saw the movie, An American Crime, yesterday. The pieces of subhuman filth involved in the torture and murder of this poor girl should have been put away for life or to death, including her own sisters and the neighbours. It is beyond me that members of that evil family, like that paula, stephanie, john and the other little sisters, are enjoying their free lives while they butchered Sylvia to death. And now those COWARDS changed their names and live in hiding. Their faces should be made public so that everyone knows who they are and what they did. They are not entitled to lead normal lives. I read stephanie is a teacher and john is a minister which sounds terrifying to me. They should not be allowed anywhere near children. These evil bastards are not to be trusted.

<<>> I have to disagree with you here. She did this to a dying girl, and that makes it so much worse. Stephanie also did not get help for Sylvia. Jenny said that she did more things to Sylvia, but the prosecution needed her to testify so they did not bring these things up. She also continues to lie and make up stories about Sylvia and refers to her as a prostitute. Another thing she does is tell every one Coy is innocent. The fact that she still disrespects Sylvia in this way puts her in the same category with the rest. Jenny was a handicapped girl. She was being mentally and physically abused as well. Blaming her was the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Faces along the bar Cling to their average day: The lights must never go out, The music must always play, All the conventions conspire To make this fort assume The furniture of home; Lest we should see where we are, Lost in a haunted wood, Children afraid of the night Who have never been happy or good. W.H. Audin

"She did this to a dying girl, and that makes it so much worse. Stephanie also did not get help for Sylvia. Jenny said that she did more things to Sylvia, but the prosecution needed her to testify so they did not bring these things up" -- Angela Sylvia wasn't dying when Stephanie did what she did. Even Jenny testified that Stephanie had almost no contact with Sylvia during all of October. Yes, it's true Stephanie seemed to turn a blind eye to what was happening to Sylvia and could've been more aggressive in finding out what was going on, and standing up to her mother and Paula. But, according to the testimony of her and others, she just wasn't around the house that much and wasn't aware of the serious abuse, and may have thought that what she did see didn't merit intervention on her part. She is by no means blameless, but that doesn't put her on the level of those who mercilessly burned, beat, scalded, and mutilated Sylvia. Jenny was questioned by the prosecution and the defense about everything she saw Stephanie do, and in both instances she only recalled those three things. Whether Jenny lied about that is anybody's guess, but I doubt it.

"I have read the transcripts and am perfectly aware of what Jenny said, and I don't remember her saying that. I could be wrong, and willing to admit it if you show proof of this." -- Angela The transcript speaks for itself. "I am aware of the fact that Jenny has said that she knew more about what Stephanie did, but was not able to say it in court, and can back this up with proof of this." -- Angela Please do. All Jenny said in court about what Stephanie did to Sylvia was what I stated earlier. In addition to that, she said Stephanie "flipped her", but I believe that was much earlier in their stay(and all in fun) when everybody was flipping everybody after Coy demonstrated a Judo move he just learned. That's nothing like Coy Hubbard or John jr. flipping Sylvia repeatedly as hard as they could into a wall. All that other stuff that was supposedly posted by Stephanie I have no idea about. Assuming it really was Stephanie, what relevance does that have to what we're talking about; ie- Stephanie being equally as responsible for Sylvia Likens' torture and death as Gertrude, Paula, and the others?

That is not proof that Stephanie did not do anything. Here is my proof: There were many things that did not come out in the testimony; in fact, one time when Jenny was asked about Stephanie, it was objected to, because Stephanie was not on trial. Stephanie's trial is not a matter of public record. In the book The Indian Torture Slaying, it was stated by Jenny that Stephanie participated more that was stated at the trial. Btw...Making a statement that was not said by someone is not mis-speaking. It is drawing a conclusion based on assumption not evidence. This is how rumors start. It is a very dangerous practice, and is the reason that there is so much false information about this case and others on the internet. I am not saying that Stephanie is as responsible as the others, but she has blood on her hands. She would do well to admit it instead of lying. I don't want to get into the Stephanie discussion again. I am going to leave it at what was already said here. The posts speak from themselves. If you know anything about this case, you will be able to point out the lies for yourself.

-Dianna tried to help her sisters several times, including buying them food, but was prevented from seeing them at the house by Gertrude. Dave, may 16 2010- Still bullshit to me. There is no excuse for child abuse, there is NO EXCUSE FOR ABUSE AT ALL! If she really wanted to help her sister she would have moved heaven and earth, she would have PERSISTED and gone to the police over and over again till they got her out of that house, demanded that they got her sister out of the house of horror. How in the hell dare they keep someone against their will locked inside a house. Besides that, Sylvia was nothing to the b-family, she wasn't related, she wasn't her daughter. Dianne could have taken her and her sister in her house and reach their parents. Jenny could have done basically the same thing, handicapped or not. She went to school didn't she? She went to church. But Sylvia stayed in the house, locked! Till the butchers came home for another round of beatings and torture. Nobody lifted a finger, nobody got help. I blame EVERYONE involved and I sure as hell don't believe a single word coming from evil sadistic stephanie. She is one lying sack of shit. If her scumbag boyfriend enjoyed punching Sylvia then I bet stephanie was having a good time too. I hope she is beyond miserable and I hope one day they will meet someone just as vicious as they are and beats the living shit out of them.

Hey Rosa, Perhaps you should read the posts by her children. Dianna was estranged from her family. How the hell would she even know what was going on. Her parents would not let her see Jenny or Sylvia. You don't give a shit about Sylvia if you would attack her family this way. You have absolutely no idea what was going through Jenny's head. You have no idea how timid abuse makes a child. Sylvia was a beautiful sweet girl. I hate the people that abused her, and I hope that most of them rot in hell, but Sylvia's sisters did absolutely nothing wrong. They do not deserve your bitter hateful words.

I did read the transcripts, but I do not remember every single thing, but remember that Jenny was not always there when Sylvia was being abused. She did enough as it is. As I said, I do not care what Stephanie did. I only care what she does now.

"remember that Jenny was not always there when Sylvia was being abused. She did enough as it is" -- Angela I think you should heed your own advice here - "It is drawing a conclusion based on assumption not evidence. This is how rumors start. It is a very dangerous practice, and is the reason that there is so much false information about this case and others on the internet" I couldn't care less what Stephanie says now. What she said THEN, and what was said about her THEN is all that really matters in the Sylvia Likens case. In any event, I have proved that I did not "put words in Jenny's mouth".

"Why are you her if you don't care about what is said about this girl" -- Angela This site is not about "what is said about this girl", this site is a message board dedicated to discussion about a movie called "An American Crime", and by extension, the story of Sylvia Likens' abuse and murder. You may allow emotion and irrationality to cloud your mind on this issue, but I do not. I proved my point, but I don't expect someone who is as obviously overwhelmed with hatred and rage as yourself to admit it. I hope you can find a measure of balance in your outlook on this issue. All the best.

"? Did the author interview Jenny? If so, I must've missed that particular passage in the book. Do you have a page number where that appears? If not, the only source he could've had for something like that would be the trial transcript." Read more: http://www.firstshowing.net/2007/01/21/sundance-review-an-american-crime/#ixzz0oVTVijdH Dave, I received the book by John Dean today. I open to the very second page, and it says the following: Acknowledgments: Bill Brennan, Kimeral Bush, Jill Costill, Tom Fox, Paul A Kaiser, Dick Roberts., Dan Shereffler, Phil Smith, The Indianapolis Police Department, the Indianapolis and Marion County Public Library, and the Indiana State Library. Does that sound like he only got his information from the transcripts to you??

"I received the book by John Dean today. I open to the very second page, and it says the following: Acknowledgments: Bill Brennan, Kimeral Bush, Jill Costill, Tom Fox, Paul A Kaiser, Dick Roberts., Dan Shereffler, Phil Smith, The Indianapolis Police Department, the Indianapolis and Marion County Public Library, and the Indiana State Library. Does that sound like he only got his information from the transcripts to you??" -- Angela I think that sounds like a list of acknowledgments to people that may or may not have contributed information that ended up in the book. Acknowledgments can be for any kind of help given to the author, not just information. Your question to me, though, is irrelevant since I never stated the author got ALL his information only from transcripts. In what way does what you just posted have anything whatsoever to do with your original statement - "In the book The Indian Torture Slaying, it was stated by Jenny that Stephanie participated more that was stated at the trial" ? I can't help but notice the name "Jenny Likens" does not appear in the list of acknowledgments. Therefore, we must conclude Dean did not interview Jenny for the book, and we also must conclude, as I originally said, that Dean had to get his facts about Jenny's knowledge of Stephanie's short list of abuses of Sylvia from either being at the trial or from the transcript. If you would care to point out where in the book, as you claim, Jenny stated that "Stephanie participated more that was stated at the trial", I'll be happy to look it up. And why did you include a link back to this page?

So, I asked someone far more informed on the Likens case than anyone I have ever seen, and he said that the trial transcripts were not released until a year after the book was published. So the transcripts were not even a source for the book, and Jenny was, in fact, a source for the book and was directly quoted in the book. On page 227 "I just wish," she told me, "me and Sylvia could have been left with people like this, instead of with Gertrude." She told me says it all. Additionally the prosecute who contributed to the book, was also interviewed. So Patty you are very right about John Dean, but Jenny did contribute to the book.