REVIEWS

Hello my mother was good friends with Sylvia Likens and I would like to know where we could see this movie I know my mom would like to . I personally have always been very interested about the Likens story

I understand the movie is now set for release on August 31st due to some distributor issues. I'm glad the movie was made. It's about time! The make movies about the murders of OJ Simpson's wife and her friend; they make movies about the Klutter Family massacre in Kansas so why not Sylvia Likens? I've grown up knowing about this horror here in Indianapolis. I'm just glad now days that family members, neighbors, and strangers (In most cases) would not stand for this kind of abuse. It wouldn't have gone on that long before someone was hauled off to jail. What's really sad is, it only took that vile, sick, deviate Gertrude and her evil brood 3 months to kill Sylvia. Though this movie won't change anything about what happened, it may make us all realize that all children are at the mercy of grown ups.

I was eight years old when this happened, most people that are around my age remember this tragedy. I do know that Gertrude passed away in 1990 and Jenn passed in 2004. Sylvia will always be remembered, I just wish that someone could have helped her.

where can i get this movie??????????????????????? has anyone read the girl next door if so what other book are there i have also read the basement.

John,,, I hear there having problems with the release of this movie... Steve Hostetter

Caleb Baker,,,, Where did Gertrude live at the time she watched you...? The death house on New York?

Where can I see this movie or buy this movie?

He should change his name back to Cougar and start doing rock and roll again...

caleb baker #11 I would ove to talk to you, me and a friend are writing a book about sylvia please email me stacybundren616@att.net please thank you

kevin, is that intended for me or what??????? I didnt fail her i wasn't even born I'm just trying to let indiana not forget her. I think its great I Love Sylvia. Ihate GERTRUDE. who are you to judge???

yes it is very sad and i think indiana has forgotten how they fail so many children i also think indiana has poor system. they give yah more time for drugs than they do murder???????????? sorry i thught you was refering to me writing a book

There is another movie called, "Jack Ketchum's a girl next door" about the same story very graphic and made me ill to my stomache for two day.s and cant sleep that good anymore, the movie affected me bad, just as the story has about this poor girl. What I find is tragic also is the fact that gertrude only did 20 yrs, and the kids did only 18 month stint in juvenile hall. Indiana should be ashamed of itself.

I hate gertrude, and those teens that helped do that I hope they live a torturous life.Anybody doing this kind of stuff, shoudl forfit there right to be on the streets forever.She was such a beautiful girl and these maggots destroyed that.If I ever met these teens in real life I would slap the hell out of them. BURN IN HELL GERTRUDE, you sicko

The theatrical release date of this movie is 12/31/2010. Why are they releasing it so late.

When is the movie comming out? I saw on one site it said Augest 19th, but I've heard March and even May ... and then dvd in october? so when ?

The Sylvia Likens Memorial is in Willard Park, at State St. and E. Washington St, on Indy's east side. The house at 3850 E. New York is currently boarded up and vacant, probably for sale. The house two doors down, where R.Hobbs lived is currently empty and for rent. As far as I know, the only one who may still alive is Paula B., somewhere in Iowa. Hubbard died within the last couple years. Johnny B. is now John Blake, and supposedly a preacher.

I worked for Lester Likens ,once when I was 14 and again at age 15 when the Marion County Fair came to town... I worked on a rig called a rope ladder .... Was a prize game and the object was to climb to the top and honk a horn to win a huge stuffed animal... I ran away from home w/ a friend at age 16 to join up with Lester at Crown Point IN.. Right away Lester wanted to know if our parents knew where we were... We told him no they did not.. Lester right away took us to his trailer and made us call our parents to let them know we were alive and well and traveling with the carnival... I can remember going into the trailer his wife was there and she was talking to Lester in a whisper voice telling him she didn't want anymore bad happening in the family... I also remember seeing a large pink trunk which I found out later held memories of Sylvia.. I always thought Lester was a good man, I know my parents thanked him.. The whole time I knew Lester I knew he had something terrible happen to his daughter (Sylvia) but I never made the connection untill many years later... As I said I was only 16 the same age as Sylvia when she died... Lester told me once that I reminded him of someone ... I asked him who and he said someone that is gone now but was very dear to him... I noticed that Lester's character in the movie is drinking beer and portrays him as kind of a drunk.. Lester may have drank in those days I don't know but in the time I knew Lester (1975-77) I never seen Lester drink... never. And I seen Lester many times... The friend I had ran away with stole 50 cents from Lester's rig for a pack of smokes... Lester found out and fired us both.. When I begged for my job he said no he said go home and go back to school ,get into sports maybe but you have no future here.. Lester knew the hardships of being a carnie, with little pay and long hours.. Well, I went home and back to school ... I completed Vocational technical school for building trades, I wrestled winning 17 lost one tied one... I ran track and got my highschool letter.. I graduated HS and went on to be a house carpenter (framer) and a large format photographer... Looking back, I truely think Lester saved my life by leading me in the right direction.. I had a lot of respect for Lester and so his opinion mean't something... I hope this movie don't exagerate and put Lester in a bad light ..! He doesn't deserve it..! I know God bless you Lester I will never forget you..!

Oh, and Lester had dark hair from what I remember... not red

I was about 15 years old whe I read the basement. It was by accident that I was reading that book. I was a freshman in high school and I had to do an essay on child abuse. After searching news articals for what seemed like forever. I found one about a 16 year old girl that was tortured in 1965. At the time I lived in the fountin square area however my sister lived on New York street. My mom liked always would ask me how school was going and I told her about my essay. Then she seen the book on my bed and fliped out. Come to find out my mother was friends with Sylvia. She remembered everything that happend. She was told many times that summer that Sylvia had run away. My mother heard the noises comming from inside the house. I always wondered why my mother wouldn't visit my older sister and her 2 grandchildren when they lived on New York. Now I know why. I have been waiting for this movie to come out. I have looked everywhere for information. I have been told several times that it will not be released in the U.S.. If there is anyone that can give me any info on this movie please let me know.

In case you don't already know, An American Crime is scheduled to air on Showtime on May 10, 2008 and released on DVD in May or June of the same year. Any other questions, email me: kingpen30@hotmail.com

This movie is now showing on SHOWTIME.

I just saw the movie An American Crime on showtime and I watched it twice. I live in Louisville, Kentucky south of Indianpolis and Id never heard this story before. I too am interested in knowing what happened with the rest of the bunch including Paula. I would be grateful to correspond with anyone who knows more about this. From what research I've read this movie is 'tame' compared to the horrors that were perpetrated on Sylvia and jenny. servusmariaen@aol.com

vicki, thanks for the response. I've been trying to research as much about this case as possible online and it's from my research that I've come across the more gory details of the crime against this young girl. I can imagine how shocking it must have been in the 60s. I keep thinking this all happened the year I was born (1966) and shortly before. If anything I think its given me a more heightened sense of awareness to being alert to possible situations around me. I think what was most heart breaking to me is thinking that perhaps this all could have been avoided. I can't imagine letting my children stay with someone I barely knew even though I don't wish to sit in judgement of her parents. Someone on here wrote that Gertrude was once their babysitter. I wonder what that was like? Gertrude was a very ill person. She needed to have been institutionalized. It makes me wonder what kind of childhood she had to be so callous and evil? The most bizarre thing to me was watching them go to church week after week and say grace etc. and then do such heinous things. I would have preferred that they stuck as close to the real details as possible in the movie if for anything as you say to do Sylvia justice.

I watched this movie in its entirety for the first time on monday nite and I havent been able to get this girl's face out of my head ,my heart or my soul. I dont want to be judgemental but part of me blames the parents a big part. Who the hell leaves their kids with someone they dont know and especially to live with them. I guess that was the biggest surprise of all. As far as the person that said they worked for lester likens , the time frame you gave was 10 years after the fact so alot can change in that time frame. Not that it matters. I as well would like to find out what happened to those other sons of b**** that did this to sylvia. It really pissed me off that gertrude got out after 20 years wth happened to life sentence. Shows that the human life is worth nothing to some people and especially the fact it was a child. Good thing Im not God is all I can say. Oh and that b*** paula give me five min in a room with her I would tie her ass up and do some of the same things that were done to sylvia ... I would like to know what happened to her as well. ANy info email flcherrybomb@aol.com

Let's remember Sylvia ...

btw the pictures that I have seen in the newspaper articles lester likens was not a short man and the fact weither he drank or not really doesnt matter. Another thing those commenting about how the movie producer should've stuck to the details...the onlyr eal thing o'haver had to go on was the court transcripts and I think he did a pretty awesome job. Noone really knows what happened except sylvia herself and of course those involved and they sure arent gonna offer more details than what were written in the court transcripts. Nuff said about that.

Anon,,,, If you were a man living in the state of Indiana and you were fighting for custody of your child because the mother of your child married a convicted child molester... You might understand my point of view... I never did gain custody of my , ( at the time) 6 year old girl because Judge James Payne didn't think my daughter was in danger of being molested.. Instead we were all evaluated by women social workers and all they did was try to white wash the convicted child molester's crime.. The social worker's told us that the 12 year old girl he molested was a run-away and a street person.. So I guess she had it comming.? Ok , your turn to comment

Also I hope you never have to feel the pain & fear I felt and the utter disgust when a social worker ( probably not a mother, I HOPE NOT !) tell me that a 12 yr. old girl deserved to be raped because she was homeless..

hi stephen Its not only the state of indiana but In florida I have gone through almost the same exact thing you did. Ify ou would be interested in chatting please email me at flcherrybomb@aol.com. I dont wanna go through the details on here. I am sorry for your experience. The fact that a social worker would say that gives me chills but it doesnt surprise me I have to say. They dont want to do anything to protect children until its too late. They want to see the ultimate proof.. Which is bs . All this stuff that happens to kids just like sylvia could've been prevented if the state would just do their job to the fullest but they wont theya re too worried about offending someone or getting sued. Unfortunately that is the country we live in.. Where the offenders have rights and victims have none.

Oh , and I also wanna mention that after I lost the court battle I contacted Mike Ahern, a local news man and left a message discribing my situation and he never returned my call..

For the most part you cant trust what the media says. Well I totally agree with you on exposing people who are supposed to be in charge of trying to help an dinstead they do the most damage yet they want to point the finger at the parent that is trying to get help for the abused child. I was told in a cout of law that I was just a vindictive ex wife which was totally not the case because up until the time of the incident things were going fine. I almost lost cu stody of my daughter becasue I reported the incident to child services and was trying to protect her. I had a judge in my case that was mor concerned with his christmas vacation than he was trying to protect my daughter. My daughter had stated things to a psychologist and we even had proof a handwritten letter from the psychologist the judge looked at me and said this isnt proof I almsot fell out of my chair. Thatj ust goes to show you are better off to take the law in your hands than you are to t rust the judicial system cause it sucks!.... Luckily for my daughter things ahve been fine for the last 3 years thats only cause she is old enough to tell ... And we didnt have real proof so they say... I guarantee if it happens again I wont stop until ig et what I want even if it means going and sitting on the governor's doorsteps in the state of florida.

Melissa,,, Thats ok I know exactly what you mean and sorry if I snapped at you... You know whats funny is the I first became away of the sylvia Likens case when my sister had the book The Indiana Torture Slaying she was reading for a school project.. I was maybe 12 at that time. When I turned 14 in 1974 I met Lester Likens and worked for him never to once the whole time I knew Lester did I ever connect him with the story in the book my sister did an esa on.. I met Lee and Jeremey Shoemaker and went to school with I never knew they were Sylvia's nephew's... I never made the connection why we walked wide of the Hobb's house on 5th street in Beech Grove when the Hightlburger's and myself delivered papers at 3:00 am.. I never made the connection that Darlieen Mcguire lived at 6th. and Alton in Beech Grove right down the street.. She was the girl that introduced Sylvia to Paula.. I was unaware of all these untill one day I remembered Sylvia but only in the context of that book of my sister's ... Let me just say that when my sister told me all about Sylvia when I was 12 I can remember being horrified by it but being a 12 yr. old boy I quickly forgot.. Anyway,,, when I found the internet I found the information ... Everything that I have recalled is of the best of my ability and I may remember sketchy because I was 14 and I'm now 48 where Lester is conserned.... Let me just ask a question to anyone out there that knows Lester to come forward and let me know if my memory fails me ...

I think the ppl in her family should deffinitly be kept track of yes... Just for safty sake if any..

lmao at what jt said you are kidding me right... A little girl is dead and you are worried about punctuation skills my god what are you the grammar police hehehe.

lol ... yeah i know i visited chicago once and never intend on going back. Its a dirty nasty city. I can only imagine, have never heard good things about that city.

you have been all over sounds like... You are right about that , there are jerks all over the world . I live in florida and I have to say the town I live in used to be such a small friendly town but over time people have gotten into a rush and just arent very courteous anymore. Being from the south you just expect it here but not so. I think mainly cause so many tourists have invaded us lol.. but if it werent for tourists our economy would be worse than what it is in certain parts of fl. Well I know that chicaog is just one part of illinois and Im sure the other parts are really beautiful.

God gave us free will to do as we wish... Some wish to just live Some choose the darker road... I think Sylvia and Saint Stephen have much in common... They both died a horrible death and the son thats sit's to the right stood to greet them as they rose to heaven... I think Sylvia was no less then a Maytr and a Saint... Her story is like non other.. Once you know about Sylvia you never forget her

Kathleen,, If you look up the meaning of Martyr you'll see that it also means : one word: "victim" Was Sylvia not a victim..? Sylvia lived in the days of black & white TV with only 4 channels if you were lucky.. Sylvia wasn't exposed to the things teens are exposed to these days... Sylvia lived in innocent times,,, I know I was alive at the time.. Sylvia got saved at a local church while she was in the house on NY and just 3 months later she'd be dead...

Okay! Under the influence is not what I meant, but how about this: When in company, an individual's ways of action always correspond to those of a person belonging a cultural level clearly below the individual's own. This seems to be true disregarding of the way the cultural level was achieved (by formal education or on the person's own steam). Does that ring a bell? As to innocent times - less flooded by the media, sure, and with a lot less of knowledge, but how about Vietnam? And the violent death of President Kennedy? Both were amply covered in print media and cinema news and TV, thus happening right before young people's and children's eyes. Has there ever been an era that was truly innocent?

I'd also like to add.. I think when the ordeal started Sylvia's tormentor's thought if what they were doing was that bad Sylvia would just leave ... When Sylvia didn't leave or try to get help the crowd may have thought she liked her treatment and might have contributed to her prolonged condition.. We do know that close to the end Sylvia did try to escape and this was suspected that she might try is why she was tied up in the basement... What baffles me is that Gertrude was 38 yrs. old with no criminal record and non of these kids had any criminal record either... Why did they all one day decide to become criminals...? Gertrude had many borders along the way and never laid a hand on them... Why Sylvia..? Why

Hello Kathleen,, I think evil came in the form of cough syrup to Gertrude... I know that if you drink enough (only 4 ounces) you can experiance a bad trip for a full day..Also causes halucination and severe paranoia Also, they described Gertrude as a haggardy woman ,,sometimes looking young and other times she'd look totally different (elderly) You can whitness it for yourself by veiewing all the photos taken of her... I think all those kids knew Gertrude was messed up ... would be something she couldn't hide on her best day.. But who knows For all those involved to go so long and never break the hold of these hedious ideas ... Not one kid turned away and said," enough".. Sylvia was treated not like a human but an object, a toy , a rag doll... How can one do this for any length of time before realizing the insanity they have become involved in and tell authorities? I agree with what you say about kids on a playground and the "fear is real" is why the victim runs like hell... usually

Hello Kathleen,, Yes, cough syrup was over the counter in those days ... Erbecker didn't use it because it couldn't be proven on paper.. Is my guess.. If Gertrude wasn't tripping from it she would have been detoxing from it's absence.. I think Randy Leper smiled to disguise his fear which is considered a normal reaction with some people.. Next time your at a scary movie and something bad happens look around and you'll see this behavior in action... Steve

Hi, Steve, yes, he was a public defender and quite overworked, too. At the same time, very skilled - and terribly vain, don't you think so? In almost every famous case, you have one lawyer or an attorney doing war dances. Of course, if your case is desperate ... You are right about Leper and probably right about this being a common behaviour, but I 've seen a lot of it at some time or other, and I think there's more to it than just fear. Leper behaved like this each time he had to admit to something. Grinning, rolling his eyes upwards - that's mocking. And there is something behind it I don't care for. Have a nice day, Kathleen

Hi, Steve, the bit I know about post-Banishewski-trial Randy is from net blogs by people from Indianapolis. They don't say anything about him, too, finding God, on the contrary, Sylvias death somehow seems to have caught up with him. While he didn't have more problems with the law as Hubbard did, he had a hard time in the town - couldn't keep a job for more than a few days, couldn't find a partner, couldn't even keep an appartment without soon getting thrown out and was generally disliked in Indianapolis. Some bloggers hinted that people indeed couldn't stomach his behaviour in court. I guess, one doesn't hear so much about him because it was finally decided not to charge him so he was like any other person with rights to their privacy etc. I know there was that motion that his intelligence be tested because someone was afraid about his validity as witness. I don't think anything ever came of it, but these doubts may have been the reason for any idea of charging him being dropped.

I just recently discovered that this film was made, although I have long been aware of "The Basement", even having at one time spoken with Kate Millett herself about the subject. My husband is the youngest of Gertrude's children, Dennis Lee Wright Jr., the son she had with Dennis Wright before he abandoned her. He grew up in Anderson IN with a different name and not knowing about his past, other than the fact that his birth mother was a murderer. He only discovered the story once he became an adult. After several years of extreme ups and downs, he now knows he is manic depressive - bi-polar, and it is almost certain that Gertrude also had the same disease. I am not condoning what happened, by ANY stretch of the imagination, but bipolar disorder is a very puzzling disease. It is just a shame that so many lives were destroyed - of course Sylvia herself, but no one mentions the younger children that really could not be held culpable. What ever happened to Dennis Lee Wright, my husband's birth father? It is always said that he abandoned Gertrude, but has no one ever heard anything on his whereabouts?

Kathleen: Thanks very much for your kind comments. No, my husband had not heard of Gertrude Baniszewski before he discovered the truth. When he was 20 years old he was in a very bad motorcylce accident and at that time asked his adopted mother for the truth, and she gave him limited information. We didn't search out more until many years later, after we were married and our son was born. By that time, Gertrude had already died. My husband was unable to ever read either "The Basement" or "Indiana Torture Slayings", but I relayed portions of it to him as he could handle it. He did not discover he was bipolar until he entered rehab for drinking. Strangely enough, I come from a family myself with bipolar disorder, both my mother and grandfather were manic-depressive, but yet I could not see it in my own husband. Yes, usually there is a trigger - and most times bipolar people "self-medicate" with alcohol and drugs. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Unfortunately, sometimes the prescription drugs are worse than the disease itself; and causes many side effects that also disrupt ones life. I'd like to say that everything has gone peachy since then for my husband, but not so much. He is a tortured soul, and even though he was just an infant at the time of what happened to poor Sylvia, he feels the blame. He remembers his time at the orphanage, which was where he went right after the crime was commited, and he was only there only for a few months before being place in a foster home, so actually his memory goes almost to when it all happened, which is more than a little eerie.

Kathe: this sounds as if bipolar disorder can have many faces. Not just because you didn’t recognize it. If your husband was first diagnosed when in treatment for something connected but in itself, dif-ferent, well, it could just as well have gone undetected for a while longer. I also get the impression that treatment is mainly or even entirely medication, i. e. chemistry. Since it’s caused by a chemical imbalance, that is alright, but what strikes me as very disturbing is that so many people with disor-ders supposedly based on physical disfunction have biographies that would be amply enough to cause psychical problems. (I’ve done some research on Jürgen Bartsch, and many of the medical experts agree he was born with a sadistical inclination. Maybe - but the childhood he had just bog-gles your mind.) The image your comments evoke is actually heartbreaking: a child just 1 year old – if I remember this right – in an orphanage, completely confused, probably scared, too, and trying to understand why such a violent change has taken place in his life. And some children in that kind of situation end up believing THEY did something wrong and are being punished. And some go on from there punishing themselves. By means of a disorder? Why not? And you are right, that thing about the memory IS eerie. Especially because, despite his then so young age, these must be memo-ries linked to language. Since he can put them into words, right? So there must be memories of the other kind, too, which one cannot describe but which go back even further. Could feeling the blame, as you say he does – when in no way, but in absolutely no way, he could be for anything in this whole sad story – have something to do with that? It must be hard, very hard, for him and for you, and think you have been very brave. And, Steve: this is getting strange. First, there is your connection to Lester and Betty, then your connection to the Shoemaker’s boys and the Hobbs’ house (did his father move after his wife’s death?) and now this – and a lot of it, if I get you right, happening to you without your making the connection at the time. What is this with you and Sylvia? Or is it just because you grew up so close by? Write about it. A book, I mean, you were there in this place, at that time and you knew the at-mosphere – do something about it. Looks as if you were meant to, anyway.

Also,,, I know the story gets even more bizzare... I was also very good friends with Barb Sanders family, the social worker that went to the death house while Sylvia was there... I was friends with her sons Mike, Homer, and her daughter Debbie... They lived in a double on north 5th. Ave. Hobbs lived on south 5th. Ave. Anyway,, Mike had problems ,, kind of like mental issues he said brought on by the Likens incident He would even get violent yelling obsenities at his mother.. I would try my best to help calm him down by telling him his mother was a good person and she would have stopped the madness in a minute if she could have known... It was Homer Sanders that was one of my best friends in school ,,, we attended many a rock concert together .. The Sanders family moved closer to the inner city and I never seen them again

Kathleen: Yes, bipolar disorder is really tragic for the people who have it and their families. And I agree, what happened to my husband is truly heartbreaking. Last night he commented that God must have put him here to pay for the sins of his family. I tried to tell him that God would not do such a thing, and that he must have had a different reason. He also mentioned that he has a strange feeling that of all of his half-siblings, he feels a connection to Marie somehow, and thinks that perhaps she tended to him more than the others. However, he does not want to try to find her - he thinks that probably none of the kids liked him much because he did not have the same father, and it must have made it more tight financially once he was born, so the others probably resented him. He was taken in as a foster child by the family that would end up adopting him. His adopted mother also had some serious issues and was abusive to him. She would tell him he was a very bad evil boy who would end up like his real mother (for things like stealing cookies) and that they could always "send him back" at any time. "What did my real mom do?", he would ask. And she would scream back "I'm your real mom now". So he quit asking, but it didn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that she was probably a murderer or she wouldn't be in the penitentiary for life. At some point, in high school, one of his adopted sisters outed him as the murderer's son (however he did not know, and still didn't know who his "real" mom was") and he was basically ostracized. He has spent his life as a loner who is very mistrusting of everyone. Steve: I've picked up the phone maybe three times now to try to call Cliff Wright, but I chicken out every time. My husband isn't aware that I am putting comments on this blog (and I don't think he would be very happy about it either), and I'm a bit afraid of opening up this can of worms if this is indeed the brother of my husband's birth father. My husband often says that he so relates to Sylvia and he is haunted by her face, while his birth family are people he just doesn't get at all. I agree with Kathleen that it is very strange all of your connections to the Likens, Hobbs, etc. - even the incident when you and your brother got the ticket from John B. Do you know what happened to him, by the way?

Kathe,, I don't even know if he's still alive,,, maybe hard telling Kathleen,, Beech Grove is a suburb of sorts ,, it has it's own mayor and police hence John B. as a Beech Grove policeman.. Beech Grove,, in case no one knows is birthplace to the famous actor Steve Mcqueen which I was named after.. While we're on the subject of Steve's I couldn't help but notice Sylvia is buried next to several ppl with the last names Stevens and Stevenson... BTW,,, Ricky lived 2-3 doors down from the death house on Denny st. at time of crime and no he didn't seem like the torturing type

Kathleen,,, The thought of a book and the title you mentioned is an awesome idea and your right I probably should tell my story in book form... It would take many years to research and write a book especially for someone like me... I'm still inspired by the idea,,,,who knows

Kathe,, That is great..! A foundation in Sylvia 's honor she would be pleased.....

Hello Kathleen,,, It's quite fun sometimes to sit and think back at your life ,, so I think of the good times mostly .. I was really blessed to have so many good people around me ,, but then I guess maybe I planned it that way.. I surrounded myself with good people and it led me all through Sylvia's family ..! Why.? I may never know why.. Your question about the Hobb's boy isn't silly at all.. I may have thought the boy I seen seemed a bit troubled ... He sat in the backyard swing a lot by himself.. If anything I had a soft spot for him if he seemed a tad weird, I was just that way.. But at the time I really don't remember connecting him to Sylvia... More then likely I heard the story about " a girl " Sylvia is not a common name and difficult for a kid to remember .. I learned about(or at least first heard the name) Sylvia in 1974 at the age of 14... At the time I was going to the Hightlberger's down the street from the Hobbs' I was in 4-6 th grade which would have been 1968-1972.. I honestly can't say how I might have reacted If I'd known the full story of Sylvia and known Ricky (the guy in the thick rimmed glasses) had done what he'd done.. I doubt that I would have passed it off as just a mean streak even though at that young age we all seemed to possess one ... I think in those days about the worst story with mean boys might involve a cat but never a human being.. I wish I could remember more about Ricky but theres probably nothing more to say other then he was a basket case and kept to himself... Mr. Hobbs seemed very normal

Hi, Kathe, You sure do have a lot on your plate, I can only repeat what your friends say, I can’t imagine how you manage. I am glad, though, that your son is so highly functioning. Are we talking Asperger’s or has his schooling so far been so effective? The youngest son of a good friend is autistic (mainly speech development problems). As they live in another country, I don’t see him that often so I no-tice every small progress and I know that my colleagues in special pedagogics have done wonders for him. He is in an integrative school and has his own teacher for the whole of a school day . Not only he has been speaking for a long time now, he even is growing out that phase of saying exactly what he thinks. That did cause problems for a while. Of course, one needn’t be autistic to do this and it might not sound so wrong but with an autistic person this is not about being franc or outspo-ken but about making yourself vulnerable in a way – well, you will know this better than I do. Ac-tually, I’m quite sure that people who meet him for the first time would take some hours, or longer, to notice he is a bit different from his peers. As to the adoption, this is much what I thought. It looks as if up to the second trial – the verdict, I guess – Gertrude had hopes of getting out of prison, if not at once then after a manageable amount of time, and taking Dennis jr. back, not relinquishing her rights until she knew it wouldn’t happen that way. Whatever his adoptive mother said about it, this means Gertrude didn’t give him up until she felt she had too. If one keeps in mind that she couldn’t know who her youngest child was with, this is a much more motherly decision than a refusal to have him adopted would have been, and it must have caused her a lot of pain. People who see her as the devil in person – there are plenty on this blog and worse on others – will not like this but I never got the impression that she was such a bad mother. I know that either Shirley or Marie once said in an interview they had been afraid of her – well, yes, I guess so, it has often been stated that in this place and time all the children were used to physical punishment and what with the pressure she was under AND her own very likely disorder, she was bound to let fly now and then. Add to this that either daughter would have felt the blame and would have wished to find an excuse for herself. Still, I firmly believe what I always believed – that she loved all her children in the same way most mothers do. Hi, Stephen, thanks for answering my questions, that was sweet. Is a basket case someone quiet and remote? (English, as you’ll have noticed, is not my mother tongue.) It does make you wonder, how a man like Mr. Hobbs, an unobtrusive man as you say, handled this kind of thing, first realizing that his son had been part of a crime, and such an appalling one, then making headlines, then being photo-graphed himself, people staring at him in the street – and then the trial, and the verdict. Your com-ments suggest, though, that he had forgiven him – something Ricky himself probably never did. And if up to the time you were 14 you had not heard of the case, it can’t have been the subject for everybody to talk about any longer, although this was neighbourhood, more or less. Unless people didn’t talk to you about this because you were a boy? Because of the embarrassment, I mean – I remember one woman on another blog saying she grew up in the vicinity and “had known about this all her life”, and there are Milletts comments about one of Sylvia’s former classmates and how she felt ASHAMED, of all things … By the way, I was quite surprised, too, that Sylvia is not a common name at your place,. I know and knew a lot of Sylvias and would rather have thought Jen-nifer and Diana to be rare names, at the time of their birth, that is, not today. Have a nice weekend, both of you, and take care.

Kathe, Is your son actually autistic or does he have Asperger's? The autistic are generally unable to attend regular school. I have a relative who has Asperger's, which they actually refer to as highly functioning autism. He's a nice guy and very smart, but a bit socially awkward. He is almost like the Rain Man. To everyone: Does anyone know anything about John Baniszewski, Sr? He is someone we never hear about. While he was made out to be a deadbeat dad in the movie and on some blogs, he did take in Stephanie after the murder trial. I know this from the Indiana Torture Slaying book. Furthermore, I also read in The Indiana Torture slaying that old Gertie was quite selfish: despite living in a rathole house with nary enough food for the kids, she bought herself a fashionable furniture set as the kids slept in one room on a ratty old mattress. I also saw on a blog, from someone who must have known the family, that JB Sr. always paid his child support. Also, why were the other children (besides Stephanie) placed in foster care despite having a dad that was around?

Hello ,,,, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with the new bedroom suite ,,,, Then you have to nail down a bedroom location which I am afraid the movie is spot on by portraying her on the couch as her bed. Besides,, she's is holding a kid hostage and was well aware of it,, which she indeed proves in the end.. The couch position in the livingroom would give her clear sight of the basement door and the upstairs door and the backdoor...

Stephen, this detailed information makes me assume that you have seen a floorplan of the ground floor, either of E. New York 3850 itself or of corresponding houses. If so, could you provide that somewhere - or just describe it? I always got the impression that from the front door you'd walk right into the kitchen. The couch G. slept on later - because she was unwell with asthma and the stairs were getting to much if she wanted to lie down during the day, I believe. Or was that just the reason she gave?

Hello Kathleen,,, I have been in the house several times... Walking through the door facing New York st. you find yourself in the livingroom and facing the up-stairs steps and a small closet to it's right.. To the left is a entry door consisiting of two pillars flanked by bookshelves and to the left is a fake fireplace on the wall.. Through the pillars you enter the diningroom and keep right you enter the kitchen.. As you enter the kitchen the basement door is on the right.. As you turn around and enter the livingroom and head up stairs there is a landing half way up ... Up-stairs you'll find three bedrooms and one bathroom w/ no tub... As you reach the top of steps your facing a bedroom and if you look left you see another bedroom and If you turn your head far to the right looking behind your position you will see a bedroom with blue walls and painted on clouds... This is where the police found Sylvia.. So, recap,,,, Your standing at top of strps facing south,,, one bedroom to right, one directly in front and one to the right and behind you with the bathroom directly to your right... The basement steps go like this... You enter by stepping down to a landing then you must turn left then down a couple steps to another landing,,then you must turn right and then it's a straight shot down 7 or so steps with a crude rail down both sides... " all original" according to crime scene photos. At the very bottom of the steps there is a small landing between the steps and the basement east wall..This landing sits right on the floor and is just simple construction of 2x4's on end decked in with 1/2" CDX plywood.. Each block in the basement walls has the name Davis block Co. printed on them... The ceiling apears to have had a hardboard nailed up to the floor joist but has all been torn down leaving just the tattltale nails used to hold it up.. As you turn to the left you will see a brick chimney flew painted with bright red,blue, and black paint. Next to it is a gas pipe that is no longer hooked up and it is bent in the middle with much of the paint rubbed off where the bend is... There is some old plumbing on the east wall where a sink had been ,,, above that is a sealed up window with a PBR beer can on sill plate... If you are standing on the bottom landing and look to the right you'll see the opening to the crawl space which goes under the rest of the house... There is a nail on the bottom of the stair rail with burn marks in the shape of an hourglass or the shape of a 3 turned in both directions... I did notice slice marks in the wood at the bottom of the steps that could have been made with a shovel or sharp knife.. Above the last step there is a dirty hand print on a dropped part of the ceiling as though someone was trying to stop themselves from falling... The whole time I was there I got the impression this was a crime scene that was very in tact considering it happened so many years ago.. Nothing has been done to remove anything

Hello Kathleen,,, The death house is boarded up as it is right now ... The house sits on the corner of Denny and New York st. The New York side ( both sides have a porch ) is the door entrance to 3850 which would be where the Silvia was.. The front of the house faces Denny st. and is the entrance to where the Vermillions lived.. This part is the part of the house with a crawl space under the house... As far as the hand print goes,, I think It's Sylvia's ... I was able to get a match by comparing the photo of Sylvia 's hands ( back cover of The Indiana Torture Slaying ) there is a crime scene photo of the torso and hands of Sylvia... Try to remember ,,, the house sat empty for 15 years (after 1965)and when it was rented out finally it didn't stay rented long by any one person... I was told by a former renter and she said the house was very creepy and she and her children wouldn't be there much longer.. The house right next door ,, on New York side has been torn down just this early spring... How did I feel while I was in the basement..?? Umm well ,,, I'm in the construction business and I generally look at a house with critiqual eyes .... While I was in the basement I must say I had a very paranoid feeling bordering on fear,,, I couldn't think of the house like a regular house because I was there for different reasons.. I couldn't stay there for any length of time without thinking about the crime and I can't see someone living there knowing the history.. I personally don't think the house is haunted by Sylvia's ghost but it may be haunted by something maybe just the memory I'm not sure.. As far as traffic of people going to the basement ,,, I don't think there has been much since 1965 Also I can tell you from my experiance as a remodeler and someone that has poured over crime scene photos ,,, this basement is in very original condition ,,, original steps and railing,, plaster on walls going down stairwell,, basement floor still exposed concrete,, floorjoist have slice marks from sharp object resembling a shovel blade,, the burn marks on handrail,, everything matches the crime scene photos from 1965... I was able to match certin marks on the handrail to the same marks in the crime scene photo ,, I have taken photos myself and everything matches up 100%.. The hand print is speculation but it matches up quite well to the crime scene photo as I mentioned.

Hello Kathe,,,, Your son wouldn't have a 50/50 chance ... The chance degrades over generations Fantastic to hear about Denny and what has so far transpired... I hope everything goes well.

Hi Ross: Yes, I have spoken with both Stephanie and Marie about many things, including life since 1965. All of the children had very hard lives; Stephanie fared the best as she was sent to live with family members. But the others - Marie, Shirley and James - were all in foster care and were treated very badly. Although their names were changed, everyone knew who they really were, and their foster families mistreated them, much the same as my husband's adopted family did to him. Stephanie and Marie both told me that Denny was very much loved by all of his siblings, and through the years they had often wondered about Denny and how his life was going, if he married, had children, etc. There were several false reports about where Denny was throughout the years, so I'm sure they were a bit skeptical when here I came, but once I confirmed who I was by providing Denny's birth date, we started exchanging photos and any doubts they may have had vanished. I have found both Stephanie and Marie to be genuine and caring women and they have welcomed me into their hearts. They had been praying over the years for God to bring their baby Denny back to them if and when He found it best. Regarding JB Sr., they told me that he passed away a few years ago, after a long illness (I'm sorry but I don't remember now what - but I'll find out again). There is some discord in the family among the siblings and Stephanie and Marie were kept away from JB Srs. funeral and I think there are still some ill feelings there. Stephanie seems to be one in the family who still finds something good to find in all of her siblings, and she says she loves them all. She loved both of her parents. She even found a way to forgive Gertrude. Marie is more hardened to life, I believe, and I don't think has quite made that leap. Stephanie has also told Shirley that they found Denny, but I haven't spoken to her yet. We're trying to take this slow, and not get emotionally overloaded. No word on anything about Paula or Jim knowing anything about Denny. I would imagine that since Shirley knows, that Paula must now too. I now have a different view of most of the kids now that I've heard some stories of how they treated Denny - even Paula. who would tailor words to songs for Denny, such as the Superman theme (it's Super Baby! able to leap from a crib in a single bound...) and the Lone Ranger theme. Strangely enough, Denny has always had a "thing" for Superman, which he passed down to our son (who is currently a Superman-everything "freak" - Smallville is currently his fave tv show). As a teen, Den resembled a young Christopher Reeve and when he wore glasses was referred to as Clark Kent. By saying that I have a different view of the kids now doesn't mean that I condoned what happened at all, but I think hearing some of the things I was told gives some insight as to how it could happen. I'll just say that all of these children had very hard lives, before and after 1965.

Forgot to ask you something, Kathe - you said once you had spoken to Kate Millett. Did she find you or did you find her? I take it this was long after "The Basement" came out? Greetings!

Hi Kathleen: I very much appreciate your kind words and thoughts for myself and my family. As for thinking that Denny probably does have Huntington's, I say this because many of the symptoms seem to be what he is experiencing. I've read that every case is different. I know about the genetic test, and we are scheduled to see a neurologist next week to discuss everything. One thing that Stephanie told me about Dennis Sr. was that he had an anger management problem, and he would explode and then he would be standing there looking confused as if he did not know what had happened or how he had gotten to that place. That sounds eerily similar to how my husband acts at times. Bipolar disorder may just be another thing he has, or maybe he started to have the emotional disturbances, etc. associated with Huntington's when he was diagnosed as bipolar. But I am thinking that bipolar disorder is just another ailment he may have, as from speaking with Stephanie there are some relatives in the family that have been diagnosed bipolar. Denny does also have some of the symptoms like loss of coordination, slurred speech (at times), jaw clenching, muscle contractions, etc. You're right; the cognitive and behavioral ones could mean anything, so I'm trying not to make too many assumptions without solid facts. But Denny proclaims himself "a knower" and believes that he must be dying. I am very nervous about the test and implications from the test such as possible discrimination for insurance. I did not know about women showing symptoms prior to menopause - I don't think there is a similar marker for men. I found Kate Millett back in the 90's when we first found out about both "The Basement" and "The Indiana Torture Slayings". At the time Denny was mostly concerned about finding out about his family health history as he was starting to have emotional problems and was continually being asked by health providers about his parents, etc. I called her on the telephone, told her who I was, and we spoke for a while. And to Kai: Thank you for acknowledging that my husband was only a baby and that he deserved a better life. I don't know about karma working out; I think my husband has had more than his share of grief and sadness in his life that he did not bring on himself. However, he does feel guilt for this travesty because this was his birth family. And I truly understand how people are and can be apathetic about the other children, at least the older ones. I don't really get how you can say that karma should get the younger ones though; if you had a mom like Gertrude telling you to do horrible things and you thought you would get her wrath if you didn't, do you know that you would take the high road? And keep in mind, I have never ever condoned what happened in the slightest. I really don't know about poster #49 having inside information about Paula and her kids; as I mentioned I haven't had any contact with Paula, only Stephanie and Marie, and we really haven't talked about Paula except as to how she reacted with Denny. But thank you for your kind words for my husband. I too hope he finds peace.

Kai: I am so sorry that you and your siblings were subjected to that type of abuse. I myself did not grow up in an abusive household, although my mother was also quite mentally unbalanced (also manic depressive/bipolar) and therefore not really there for me, and as an only child, I was forced to become self-sufficient early in life. It was not easy for me though - my mother tried to commit suicide several times, once driving the family car off the side of the freeway and several times taking multiple pills timed for when I would come home from school so I would get to find her with her eyes rolled back and have to call the paramedics to revive her. I was mostly talking about the very young ones such as Shirley and James, but obviously the system felt that only Paula and John Jr. should do time for what happened. Marie was never charged with anything. Stephanie's charges were dropped after some information was provided by some people, including Diana Likens for one I think, that was never made public. I in no way profess to be an expert on any of these facts nor am I trying to make any excuses for any of the participants in this heinous act. But of course, I look at it as this terrible occurance that destroyed an entire family for generations to come. And it is tragic for everyone concerned. And while I certainly understand your feelings about what they did and didn't deserve, I don't feel that I have any right to judge anyone. That is for God to do, not me.

I meant, of course, positive for you not positive in the sense that - you know what I mean! Sorry - sometimes it's quite obvious English is not my mother tongue.

Hi Kathleen: I hope you are right about the Huntington's. I very much appreciate your thoughts and prayers, so thank you. I'll let you know what happens. Today I received a picture of Dennis Sr. from the person who connected me with Stephanie. This is the first time I've seen a picture of Denny's dad. It is his high school picture when he was a Junior. I can totally see the resemblance - the eyes, mouth, ears and hs widow's peak are all his dad's! Stephanie said that all the Wrights were very good looking. While Denny's dad had passed away many years ago, the other siblings are still alive (w/Huntington's) so I'm curious as to what Dennis Sr.'s twin looked like through the years. Also strangely enough, since the pic of Dennis Sr. was from his high school yearbook, I went over to classmates.com and saw that Clifford Wright (I'm guessing this is the Clifford Wright that Steve mentioned as maybe being related) also attended that school (class of 1965), so perhaps he is indeed related. Maybe I will get the nerve to call his construction company after all... I don't think he is a sibling but perhaps a cousin or something... Have a nice weekend everyone.

Hi Steve: Dennis Sr.'s identical twin's name is Richard. I wonder if he is the same Richard Wright you mentioned. I had not heard of Raymond, but this is getting wild how intertwined everyone is. Dennis and Richard had two other siblings, a sister named Debbie and now I've forgotten the other brother's name, I know that both Stephanie and Marie at one time (long before I found it) had been posting on the imdb board, and I think also Paula and Jim did at times (although I don't think either Paula or Jim identified themselves), but looking at the posts it appears that many posters were very unkind to them and they left and deleted all of their posts. That's why at first when I went there I remarked that I had wished I had found the board prior to them leaving it. It was a fluke (or an act of God) that there were still posters over there who could point me in the right direction. And I agree with you and Kathleen - we all need our familes in times of trouble. We have been quite alone for a while and sometimes feel like an island upon ourselves. I have often wondered and worried about the future and what it may hold for my son, who may never be self-sufficient enough to be on his own. I myself am an only child, my father is deceased and my mother in a retirement home and not all there mentally, and with no other family and then Den not being close to his adopted family I thought there would be no one for my son once we are gone. Perhaps all of this is happening for a reason - well, many reasons, really - to understand what is happening to Denny, to bring closure to all of the questions of his past and reunite him with family that truly has loved him all along, and to provide emotional support to our son in his future.

Thanks to everyone for their comments, particularly Kathe, Kathleen, and Steve. I have been fascinated, in fact, almost obsessed with this case since watching American Crime. Since posting questions, I have pretty much sat back and watched Steve, Kathe, and Kathleen shed light on some of the issues surrounding this case. When I watched the movie, and then did further research into the case, I was outraged by what happened and felt a sense for the need of vengeance and retribution against Gertrude and the family involved. This is natural human nature. However, the more I look into things, and read from this board, the more I feel level headed about things and look at it more as a complex matter. We had an obviously mentally ill mother, whom had great weight and influence over her kids; all living in close quarters together in squalor, etc. Yeah, it does not justify anything that happened to Sylvia, but when I really think about it, it starts to mitigate it. While I intially thought of rage, and horror, and how much I generally hate bullies and child predators, etc.; I now think of how all around sad the situation is. Kathe's husbands life without a sense of identity; the obvious punishment via social stigma all the Baniszewski kids faced, etc. While I really wanted to see any of the kids over 10 burn (Johnny, Stephanie, Paula, Coy, Richard, etc) for what they did to Sylvia, I now think I am happy for the fact that the ones who did have a second chance at life made good on it. Johnny in an interview admitted he got off easy, took responsibility for his hideous actions, and commented on the Jonesboro case. From what I know, Stephanie teaches in a Christian school in FL and has had a completely normal life since. Marie, Jimmy, Shirley, etc. I just feel very sorry for, as they were too young to know any better, did not have any real moral culpability for what happened, yet obviously paid a very serious price in guilt by association. This is such a horrible thing, and as someone said, ruined several families for generations and generations. I have it set to have notifications on her via e-mail register with my e-mail account, and look forward to any further comments. Thanks again to the contributors - whenever I click on the link, I am very happy to learn something new. Kathe, in particular, I hope your husband finds some comfort and closure.

Hello,,,, I haven't seen the movie, just the trailer... I have read the book The Indiana Torture Slaying front to back without putting it down... My sister told me I wouldn't want to stop reading so I should pick a time when I had a few hours free.. Truthfully,,, It's the only book I've ever read... My thing has been magazine and never front to back ,, just kind of a reference thing... I don't know if I can watch the movie but I have not had an oppertunity as of yet.. Kathreen,,Ross I have just very limited knowlege and more questions then answers at this point. I'm curious to know the fine details like: Someone to tell me if I'm right or wrong,,, I think Gertrude thought in her own mind that she was right in all her actions hence is why ppl "not involved" were allowed to see Sylvia.. If Gertrude had thought she was in the wrong she would have never let that happen for fear she'd be turned in.. Also you could say that this re-enforced her denial ... Somehow Gertrude convinced everyone she was doing the right thing including herself ,,, untill enter Social worker,, Preist,, and confession note... The three signs of pure guilt..

Kathe, I just wanted to thank you for posting about your husband. In reading all the stories about the Sylvia Likens murder, it never mentions what happened to Denis. That's always kind of bugged me for some reason.. I've always wondered how life turned out for him and have even felt a wave of sympathy for him, probably more so then the rest of the children. Even though he was to young to remember any of it, no child, especially an infant, deserves to be apart of such unspeakable acts. I wish him nothing but peace and happiness for the rest of his life.

Don't get me wrong,,, he was doing his job and it's good to know that the police are watching out for your kids wellfare when you can't always yourself... I just wish that mentality was used to save Sylvia

Hello Kathe, Kathleen,,, Sorry I didn't mean to be so graphic when asking questions like that but I feel thats the only way I'd know for sure if I was talking to someone that was there... Not that I don't trust Kathe it's not that.. I'd just do that line of questioning so I myself would know 100% that the person I was talking with would be the real deal.. Tomorrow is the 26th of Oct.. remember Sylvia kind regards

I would just like for Steph to admit that her mother never once showed any remourse for her actions, and until the day she died felt victimized herself for the 17 years of bingo she missed out on. And as far as Steph forgiving her mother? how can she even forgive herself for at the age of 15 (not 11, as stated in a previous post) witnessing another human not just being beat up and picked on, but carved on, burned, branded, forced to eat poop, and starved to death without drawing the line and doing something about it. 15 years old is a young adult by 1965 standards, she was not a helpless kid. Paula and Steph being allowed to live full lives while Sylvia died such a painful death is exactly the reason I am an athiest. God?..................your fired.

Kaptain Kebo, As quoted by one of my favorite philosophers, Mr. Miyagi: "There are no bad students, only bad teachers. Teacher say, student do". Stephanie wasn't a helpless kid, but she still was just a kid doing what her mother told her to do. Where exactly have you learned your morals from? Your parents. Or whoever it was that raised you. You're parents are your foundation on learning right from wrong why things are right and why things are wrong. A child does what they are told to do. The only person there is to blame in this crime is Gertrude, and she herself wasn't in her right mind due to being very sick and fucked up on all those medications. And that's on top of being dirt poor and trying to sustain 7 kids plus 2 on top of them? Clearly it was a disaster waiting to happen! This doesn't in anyway justify what happened to poor Sylvia, but hating the children for what they did is not only close minded and immoral, but childish.

Rebecca, First off, being dirt poor is no excuse for forcing a child to drink urine and to be branded with a hot metal hook, nor is being on medication or having a bunch of kids. If this were the case about thirty percent of the planet would be on the brink of child torture/murder. Alao, there is a certain level of insanity/intensity that when it occurs (putting cigarettes out on and forcing someone to eat shit) will trigger a mechanism within a person to do what is right thing and overide their fucked up mom and get a second opinion, or get help. This is not the result of morals instilled within us by our parents but survival instincts we are born with. For you to refer to Paula (who is as much to blame as Gertie, as is Coy and Richard and to some extent Stessi) as a helpless child is beyond childish. I believe that you are sick Rebecca and somehow derive some pleasure out of the fact that the B's all got away with this crap. I know that at 15 yrs. old I never would have allowed this to happen, not because of my folks mad parenting skills but because I am of the human species and was born with instincts. Paula and Steph can rot in hell with Gertie, Coy, Richard and John Jr. But until they die they deserve to be constantly reminded of how they tortured Sylvia, and if you call that a fate worse than death I suggest you take a look at Sylvia's autopsy photos and re-think that one.

LMFAO!! Wow. That has to be the most closed minded, black and white thinking I've come across in a LONG time! Did you even stop to actually let my words penetrate that thick skull of yours, or was it too difficult a task to handle? Never the less, I'll answer you piece by piece to avoid confusion. "Rebecca, First off, being dirt poor is no excuse for forcing a child to drink urine and to be branded with a hot metal hook, nor is being on medication or having a bunch of kids. If this were the case about thirty percent of the planet would be on the brink of child torture/murder." You've lived a pretty sheltered life, haven't you? Sylvia's murder isn't the first to of happened in this fashion, and it sure as fuck won't be the last. Go read some crimelibrary.com and you'll see just what i'm talking about. There is a LOT more to it then just being dirt poor, sweetheart. Poverty is a very highly stressful thing for any individual to endure. It's extremely taxing on the mind and body, and can drag ANYONE down with it. Most individuals are able to cope with poverty, if they don't fall into a deep depression. But Gertie was never a very mentally stabled individual to begin with. She never should of agreed to take in Sylvia and Jenny, and those other kids should of gone into foster homes long before Sylvia came along. You know who I blame more then anyone else in this matter? Sylvia's parents. "Alao, there is a certain level of insanity/intensity that when it occurs (putting cigarettes out on and forcing someone to eat shit) will trigger a mechanism within a person to do what is right thing and overide their fucked up mom and get a second opinion, or get help." lol There's that black and white thinking that I "adore" about you. Let's stop for a second and step outside of our thick spoiled brat minds, shall we? Little Billy is 2 years old and loves his parents just as much as any child does. He looks to his mother and father to teach him the ways of the world because they are all he knows. One day little Billy is drinking a soda and spills it. His mother comes up and beats him senseless and tells him that she's doing it to "teach him a lesson" on being careful. This continues everytime Billy does something "careless". When little Billy is 5, his little sister, who's 2, knocks something over. Because Billy's mom has drilled it in his head to be the "responsible older sibling", what does he do? He goes over and hits his sister to teach her a lesson on being careful. This has to be the right thing, because it's what his mother did to him. Besides, mama seems pleased with this. She's sitting over on the couch smiling and telling him "good boy". Now it's only a matter of time before billy starts doing this to younger children at school, and because mom and dad never taught him how to control his anger, his "lesson teaching" only get's more and more violent and twisted by the day. But it's okay, because mommy says it is. One day he shoves a kid down a flight of stairs for back talking to him and he ends up in a juvenile detention, the end. Now is this Billy's fault? To some degree. He made that conscious decision, no one else. But he did it because that's what his mother taught him to be right. In his world, everything is ass backwards. Right is wrong and wrong is right. Can you imagine looking back on your life and finding out that everything you were taught was wrong? It's a pretty scary concept, but one that many children end up facing later in life, usually after they've committed some horrid crime. Think this is wrong? Go brush up on your child psychology. "This is not the result of morals instilled within us by our parents but survival instincts we are born with." You want to talk about human instincts? Let's talk about that disgusting primitive urge that lays within us all that involves inflicting pain on those weaker then us. We all have it, it's there, and if you deny having never in your life felt it, even just a small inclination of it, then you're a liar. Humans love power, and they love to feel powerful. Fortunately most people are mentally stable enough to either ignore this urge all together or control it. That's the beauty of being human, is having the gift of REASON because we were TAUGHT at a young age that inflicting pain on others is WRONG! Take all that away and what happens? You're no different then the animals. "For you to refer to Paula (who is as much to blame as Gertie, as is Coy and Richard and to some extent Stessi) as a helpless child is beyond childish." Uh, first off, I was talking about Stephanie, because that's you you first referred to. And I'm pretty sure I said "Stephanie wasn't a helpless kid, but she still was just a kid doing what her mother told her to do" meaning while Stephanie (or Paula) were far from innocent children, they WERE STILL CHILDREN. Children doing as their mother told them to because they thought they were teaching Sylvia a lesson. End of story, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I don't know if the whole children do as they're taught thing has sunk into you're head yet, but that's exactly what happened here. And if you can't sit back and understand that or even TRY to understand that, then you're the one that's beyond childish. "I believe that you are sick Rebecca and somehow derive some pleasure out of the fact that the B's all got away with this crap." AWWW!! That's so cute! I pissed you off! Let me guess...you're 20, right? I remember having that same naive ego about how the world works too! Don't worry, you'll grow out of that someday. But first would you like to explain to me how it is I'm sick? Because I see a situation for EXACTLY how it was? Because looking at a situation from the point of view of those that caused it doesn't automatically make you side with them. What happened to Sylvia never should of happened, and I feel a great sympathy for her family and friends. I think Gertie got what was coming to her when she was locked away and only wish she could have been in prison longer. BUT I can see how it happened, and not by automatically jumping to the "THAT WOMEN AND THOSE KIDS ARE PURE EVIL END OF STORY" excuse. No one is born evil. Something brings it on, and if you're not mentally strong enough to fight it, then it get's worse and worse overtime until it spirals out of control. I'm sure Gertie had her moments when she was a good person as well as a good mother, even if only for a minute. The entire thing is horribly sad. "I know that at 15 yrs. old I never would have allowed this to happen, not because of my folks mad parenting skills but because I am of the human species and was born with instincts." lol I'm pretty sure I already answered this. Again, a child's morale can be warped if not brought up the right way. Child psychology, etc. "Paula and Steph can rot in hell with Gertie, Coy, Richard and John Jr. " And you say I take pleasure in other people's pain? "But until they die they deserve to be constantly reminded of how they tortured Sylvia" I agree "and if you call that a fate worse than death I suggest you take a look at Sylvia's autopsy photos and re-think that one." Sylvia will never have to experience pain again. Go through your life without a soul to offer love and forgiveness and see if it's worth living.

You are obviously Steph or somebody close to the Baniscewski/Blake torture clan. You stated how rough their (your) lives have been, why don't you just fess up to who you are and what your connection is and I will do the same. Steph (you) was old enough to blow Coy Hubbard and smoke cigarettes, you could have, and should have saved Sylvia. Stop making excuses for yourself under a fake name. You were/are pathetic scum and should be in jail.

How do you know that their lives have been rough since the crime? How do you know that they are ridiculed? They have changed there names and moved to other States. You seem to know who you are defending. Does your boyfriend also support you in forgiving people for murder?

Do some research! There have been interviews and reports given by the children about how their lives have been since the murders. You don't need to know their new names to find them! My boyfriend supports me in not being a narrow minded twit and being able to look at something from a different prospective.

More fantasy? I challenge you to produce the location of ANY reports or interviews the kids have given about their lives since they killed Sylvia....ANY, with the exception of 1 dead John Jr. NOBODY has given reports....interviews? reports?....to who? you are so full of shit. Yeah, Paula talks to the press all the time. If you can't be honest about your sources go away.

"Yeah, Paula talks to the press all the time." You just answered part of your own question, dumbass. And you CHALLENGE me!? ROFL!! You should change your name from Kaptain Kebo to Kaptain Bebo... as in Bebo the clown!

Paula has not spoken to the press, I know these things. Stop lying, yes, to avoid confusion I CHALLENGE YOU. Or did she give a secret interview that nobody knows about except you and your boyfriend when you are trying to manufacture legit sources for all the bullshit you have been spewing about everyboy's 'rough lives'. You know nothing about anybodys lives and certainly not thru any 'reports and interviews' (with the possible exception of that b.s. that John Jr. was spewing some years back. Rebecca, are you aware that Gertie NEVER felt any remourse for Sylvias death?..............."do some research, get the f outaa here" interviews and reports on how their lives have been since they killed Sylvia, you are a blatant liar, they do not exist.

LIAR, they do not exist. probably a good time to get tired and go to sleep, liar. It is just your sensitive nature to assume that the lives of Paula and Stessi have been rough and then try to back it up with fantasy bullshit. liar "recap on the interviews" what interviews????

Geez Becca i'm all googled out. Lots of info but none of the 'reports and interviews about their lives since they killed Sylvia' you spoke of. Are you sure you weren't just kidding about these 'reports and interviews' Becca???? which leads to, how do you know anything about Paula and Stessi's lives since they left East New York St.??

Uhhh, except I'm not lying. I just spent like 20 minutes looking for them and can't seem to find them either. Oh well. They were there at one point. I'll look again in the morning. "but really, be more honest with your boyfriend then you are with people on the internet or your relationship will go nowhere, as he will not be able to trust you any more than I can, all because you lied to me" What are you Doctor Phil? I've been living with my boyfriend for 5 years now. I'm pretty sure I don't need some random person from the internet (who knows NOTHING about myself, my boyfriend, or our relationship) telling me how to keep my relationship intact. "maybe someday you will all be happy together at the big bingo game in the sky" I hate bingo.

And by the way, Rebecca, I' m impressed at the patience and levelheadedness you kept throughout this tiring and upsetting dialogue. I would have given up.

"Uhhh, except I'm not lying. I just spent like 20 minutes looking for them and can't seem to find them either. Oh well. They were there at one point." LOL What bullshit. I guess this is what KK was talking about when he said lies lead to more lies. The fact of the matter is that these "children" were old enough to know right from wrong no matter what their mother taught them. They are directly responsible for the horrible death of Sylvia Likens. Why do you so vigorously defend them? What is your connection to these people?

rebecca - By the time a "child" is 15 years old they have had many outside influences, not just their parents. You honestly believe that the only way a person learns that violence is wrong is through their parents? Society (friends, school, church, etc.) also play a part in showing a person right from wrong. Your "but she didn't know any better!" excuse doesn't hold water.

You know what? I've repeated myself over and over and over again and NOTHING I've said seems to be sinking in. I'll say it one more time and then I'm done with the argument, because I'm obviously arguing with kids....that or very, very under developed adults. A parent is like God in the eyes of a child. Even at the age of 16, you're brain is still growing and developing (and yes, that includes back in 1965). Yes, you do learn from society, but it's your PARENTS that build that foundation of what's right and wrong. I can tell you right now that I've learned more from my mother about life and what's right and wrong then society EVER could have taught me! In closing, all I have to say about the Baniszewski children learning from society is this: "A twelve-year-old girl named Judy Duke described some of the goings-on to her mother while Mrs. Duke was washing dishes. "They were beating and kicking Sylvia something terrible," the girl reported. "Oh, well, they're just punishing her, aren't they?" Mrs. Duke asked rhetorically." "The two neighbors sat around a table and drank coffee while kids yelled at each other and baby Dennis fussed and cried. Vermillion noticed a slim, pretty but timid and nervous- looking girl who had a black eye. "That's Sylvia," sighed Gertrude. Paula Baniszewski added, "I gave her the black eye." Just before making this boast, however, Paula filled a glass with hot water and threw it at Sylvia. Understandably, Phyllis Vermillion decided to look elsewhere for a babysitter. Less understandably, she did not report what she had seen and heard to the authorities. Early in October, Vermillion paid another social call to the large family next door. Again she saw Sylvia, who looked dazed, even zombified, and who had another black eye plus a swollen lip. "I beat her up," Paula readily volunteered. Later, Paula began hitting the listless girl with a belt. Again Phyllis Vermillion left the house without believing she had seen something the police ought to know about. If a supposedly normal, responsible adult could not recognize these actions as criminal, why should anyone expect an untutored teenager like Sylvia to be able to do so?" "One neighbor heard and saw the beatings, but turned away and told his wife "I think it's best we not get involved" Yeah, that sounds like a AWESOME neighborhood to instill some good strong morals into America's youth! Oh wait, maybe not. Sorry, you fail!

Rebecca - You never did answer my questions regarding your vehement defense of these murderers or what your connection is to them. Your anecdote proves nothing other than there are others to blame for Sylvia's death. Your assertion that a 16 year-old wouldn't have the capacity to understand extreme violence is wrong unless their parents told them so is simply absurd. Stephanie knew what was going on was wrong. She chose not to tell for a number of reasons. Not knowing torture is wrong was not one of them.

"I hope you can staighten yourself out." And I hope you can finally make it past the 8th grade!

Kaptain Kebo: If you don't mind me asking, what is your connection to the incident? In all honesty, I post on this blog and frequently read it to learn more about the case. Rebecca, in fairness, it does sound as though you have some connection. I'm not saying this to bicker, just saying it to show things from my perspective. Let's try to keep things civil. We had a nice dialogue going for a while here.

Paula is in Bedford, Iowa

Didn't have to find it, I already knew.

Do you know anything else about her? I hope she's miserable.

By the way the breaking of the will started with Gertrude beating Sylvia and Jenny on a regular basis. It was Gertrude ,, "the sick woman" bat left then right.. And by God you kids had better listen to me!

Wow; I can't believe what's been going on here. I certainly did not mean to incite such hatred, etc. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions; we are just expressing ours here, but as Kathleen mentioned several posts up, we have all been discussing politely. I, like Stephen, have noticed Kaptain Kebo on other blogs and while some of his comments ring similarly, they were never so hostile previously. I certainly understand the outrage that people feel about this case, but it is not necessary to attack the posters that may have sympathetic feelings for some of the people involved. One can get across their opinions without attacking others. I think I've said it before, there is no black and white here but many shades of gray, and it is much more complex than it appears at first. Perhaps some people, like KK, can only see things in b&w. I have appreciated the level headed comments regarding this case made by Kathleen, Stephen and Rebecca. Stephen, by the way, do you doubt I am really married to baby Denny? Of course, I have no reason to lie to anyone. I wanted to prove it when I was being connected to Stephanie, because over the years there were false reports of where and who baby Dennis was. I was able to prove it by providing his birth date, which was written on the back of a picture that Stephanie had of Denny when he was just 2 days old. Once I provided that, they knew I was who I said I was. Denny has his first birth certificate with his original name and the name of his birth parents, Gertrude (it listed Wright as the last name) and Dennis Lee Wright. I could certainly send you a copy somehow to confirm that if you want. I knew that identifying myself on this blog could lead to horrible things said to myself and my husband. Some people are so narrow-minded that they believe that even the baby should be blamed. I've seen comments on other blogs hoping that even the children of those involved should be hounded for the rest of their lives. That is just sad. And Kaptain Kebo, I'd like to address you about something. You said you wanted Stephanie to admit that she never showed any remorse, and how could she forgive herself. She did actually try to save Sylvia. What is not known and was never in any publication, is that Stephanie actually had epilepsy and was having "time losses" when she had seizures. The phenobarbitol that Gertrude is reported taking was actually Stephanie's. Gertrude did not tell Stephanie that she had epilepsy, so she didn't know why whe was taking the phenobarbitol - I forgot what they told her it was for. In any event, Stephanie was not that aware of what was going on. She was Sylvia's friend. She told Sylvia to tell her if anything got real bad, and Sylvia never did. The week before she died, Stephanie tried calling the authorities twice. Once they came when she was in a seizure so she was not even aware they had come; the other time Gertrude interceded. I actually feel bad providing this information on this blog because Stephanie herself told me this, and I have not seen it anywhere else. I believe her. I have seen those mocking her Christianity saying that she didn't find Christ until after Sylvia died. But Stephanie told me she always attended church. It was Gertrude who did not attend church. And Marie told me it was she that tried to help Sylvia escape, and that Paula beat her pretty badly for that. They were all scared of Paula; she was like Gertrude's extended hand. Apparently, Gertrude and Paula were alone with Sylvia a lot of the time, which is never mentioned, when the rest of the kids were at school, so who knows what they were doing then. And unfortunately, my husband was there too for this to be in his subconscious (sp?), to haunt him in his adult life.

Again, here we go making excuses for people. Steph told Sylvia to 'tell her if things got really bad 'and she never told her. It reminds me of the scene in 'Walk Hard, The Dewey Cox Story' where Nate say's "Gee Dewey, I'm cut in half pretty bad". Maybe when Sylvia's level of pain reached the point where she could only mutter and moan, that was the hint to do something. Remember, Sylvia may have been Stephs friend, but Coy was Stephs Boyfriend. Sorry to rain on everyones parade but the fact is Steph is a liar and should have been convicted as an accomplice to murder. Paula should still be locked up.

Listen, Kaptain Kebo, I've already many times said I am NOT making excuses for anyone. But what about the kids telling many adults about the situation and it was ignored do you just not get? The police came twice that week; and were sent away when Gertrude interceded. I don't believe that Stephanie is a liar. The case against her was dropped largely due to witness testimony, primarily Sylvia's own sister Diana, and the information was sealed. The reason the case was dropped was because they didn't have a case. And while I am no fan of Paula, by any means, according to the state of Indiana, she paid her debt to society. Who made you judge and jury? I know I'm not.

Well said, Kathe

Just wanted to say that myself and a couple of others are the 'minorities' on this forum, and yes when it comes to torturing other humans I am the first to admit that I pretty much am of the 'Black and White' mentality. I don't have any compassion or tolerance for people turning perpetrators into victims. But I must sat that many of you have some amazing insight into this crime and are very intelligent in how you communicate. Stephen's 'couldn't' theory is absolutely amazing and pretty much sums it up as far as any explanation goes. Kathleen has made some wonderful observations as well. And Kathe, your story is amazing, I wish you and your husband the best of health and good fortune as he truly is a victim of this crime and is fortunate to have somebody as supportive and wise as you in his life at this time. I do not want to further disrupt this forum by repeating my negative banter about people getting off easy and all arouind lack of remourse, so I will shut up and continue to read what you guys have to say as it is much more interesting.

Hello,,, Kathleen,, yes I believe that was Mrs. Duke that called them yes the young Duke girl came home one day while her mother was washing dishes and told her of her concern for Sylvia.. It was Phillis Vermillion that "almost" called the police when the noise comming from the basement next door went a little too long.. I think it was Paula that said Sylvia was pregnant when she introduced her to Phillis Vermillion.. Then I believe Paula went on to brag about her giving Sylvia a black eye.. Yes , the nurse was Barbara and she was sent in regards to the Duke phone call ,I believe. I think the preist visited once and it was Dianna Shoemaker that visited once aswell ,, Sylvia's married sister and she was threatened by Gertrude with calling the police if she didn't go away.. The lie Gertrude made up was that Sylvia's parents didn't want her and Sylvia together.. Sylvia was confined to the basement already when the nurse arrived and the preist was after the nurse .. I know ppl with bi-polar disorder,, some in denial about it and others take their medication .. Yeah I know first hand how they go off ... That could explain a lot of Gertrude's uncontrollable rage. I also think that bi-polar ppl set themselves up for an attack by being real confronting.. Also you must factor in the fact that Gertrude herself was abused and extended that to Sylvia.. I think by the time they started to be concerned about Sylvia's condition it was to late which caused even more rage.. When you look back you see everything fits like clock-work,,, ppl playing agains't other people, not only the ones "involved" but the ones that won't get involved.. Non of which could have been planned, I mean how do you plan for people to look the other way that aren't involved ..

Good thinking, Stephen! Especially as most of the excuses found for Jenny apply just as well to Stephanie and her younger siblings, plus one more Jenny did not have: G. was their mother and they loved her.

Kai,, Be that as it may obviously they must have seen different in a court of law

Kai, could you be a bit clearer? Ignorant in reference to what? Pathetic in which aspect?

And Jenny Liken's excuse?.............Fear.

And lets not forget that while the entire B clan was lying through their teeth and following Mom's script it was Jenny who pulled the cop aside and told the truth.

The cop was out the door when brave little Jenny pulled him aside and said "get me the fuck out of here", proving that she was in great fear for her welfare. If Jenny had not turned them in it is likely that she would be dead now and the B's would never have been caught, which means most of you people would be on another forum right now defending Ted Bundy or Tex Watson. I know I said I was finished here but I have less patience for people turning victims into perpetrators than I do for turing perpetrators into victims, when confronted with such ignorance I must speak up.

Then the question comes down to why didn't Jenny take the arm of a teacher,, or her sister,,, or another policeman,,or the nurse,, or the preist,, the same questions you ask of the others.. When Jenny came forward was after the fact,, to late

And Indianapois invented the car? I was not aware of that, in fact I did not know that a city could invent anything. And if not for Jenny's bravery, Paula and Stessi would be living with a dark secret to this day and you would have nobody to defend.

Hey Kai, do not let these liberals get you down. Any level headed person can see just how far they must reach to defend these monsters.

By the way, Jenny made her break when she felt safe to do it. She said, "GET ME OUT OF HERE and I will tell you everything", proving that she was in GREAT fear for her life. Yes, shoulda, coulda, woulda, but we are not dealing with mental giants here. Be it to late she spoke up when a cop was there and she felt safe in doing so.

The truth may be that this is all a product of serious abuse and it can make monsters out of the nicest of ppl.. why? they don't know just theories Also, I'd like to say all I mean't was that you can't look at this case as a whole without considering Jenny into your final equation...

Also ,, I think it's pretty low to come in here talking down Hoosiers' just because your having a hard time answering questions straight forward.. And also when you talk down Hoosiers' you talk down Sylvia as well

What makes me liberal..? The fact that I'm trying to think this is something bigger then just a bunch of stupid hayseed dipshits..?

I'm glad people here get to see the kind of person that would elect a president that would distroy a once fine nation

Not sure where you are going with that?????

Is this the same Stephanie that you stated ultimately forgave her mother?? and the 'Not sure where you are going with that' was directed at a political comment regarding the presidential election.

Kaptain Kebo, obviously you know it's the same Stephanie. Why is that an issue if she ultimately forgave her mother? I think that has to do with her Christian beliefs. Isn't that what Chistianity preaches after all?

I'm glad people here get to see the kind of person that would elect a president that would distroy a once fine nation Stephen Hostetter on Oct 29, 2008 This is a textbook example of somebody's inability to answer a question straightforward.

By the way, Christaianity is based on bullshit and lies, only the gullible or people in need of forgiveness swallow.

Let's leave your imaginary super hero out of this and stick to logic. I promise to not bring up Santa Claus.

Sorry, but if Steph forgives anybody that was involved in how that girl was slowly tortured and killed right before her eyes (which you stated she did forgive), then she is grasping towards christianity because no logical person could witness someone being burned, beaten and branded and ever find and ounce of understanding or forgiveness within themselves. If she did not have her imaginary superhero to cling onto she would be dubbed as crazy or insane. Guess what? Paula should still be in jail......end of story, next?

I do respect you for defending your husbands sisters Kathe. Some people would just make an off handed remark assuming that I am voting for a certain candidate and then run away. All out of bullets?? I've got logic for miles, in fact while others fall into the trenches of defeat I am just getting warmed up. By the way, maybe you can set Rebecca straight on just how rough Steph and Paula's lives have (not) been. Does Steph have kids? Sylvia didn't have the chance.

Kathe, you said it perfectly. I'm not religious in the least bit, but I don't out right claim that there is nothing out there. I'm an agnostic. I don't know what to believe, because I know that as a human, there is no way I know everything there is to know about life or the world, or the universe. Humans aren't as intelligent as they seem to think...smug and arrogant, but far from the intelligent know it alls they like to portray themselves as. Fact of the matter is, NO ONE knows for sure whether or not there is a higher power. Prove it. PROVE that there isn't a God. Physically fucking prove it. You can't. Just like you can't prove there is one. Only a naive idiot would claim to know for absolute certain that we're all there is to life. Of course, then again lol...

By the way Rebecca, did you manage to locate those post murder interviews the B kids have given regarding their lives since the crime?........didn't think so, you are also a liar, so stay out of this.

Does it hurt to be so unreceptive, Kaptain Kebo? Don't worry, that should change as soon as you turn 16 years old

That Gertrude is a master manipulator is obvious. Here are my thoughts of the psychological power play she made in this situation: she had a fat, unattractive, insecure, and very angry daughter in Paula. Due to her insecurity, she allowed herself to essentially be a piece of tail for married, older men since boys her own age ignored her. She experienced rejection by these men, who ultimately decided on their wives over porky little Paula. This drove rage inside of her. Gertrude, also, had major emotional health and impulse control issues. Kathe's contention that she had untreated bipolar disorder seems quite plausible. She knew the feeling of rejection by men, and felt burning anger inside of her with no outlet. Gertrude also reveled in any attention she got from the opposite sex. When Sylvia came along, Sylvia threatened this. Gertrude really began to hate Sylvia, who was by all accounts a very attractive girl. Gertrude then manipulated Paula to channel Paula's inner hatred and anger towards Sylvia, making up lies about Sylvia insulting Paula, etc. The fact that Paula was around Sylvia's age, and was a slovenly, unattractive girl while Sylvia turned a lot of eyes did not help the situation. Gertrude nurtured and nurtured the animosity of Paula by Sylvia, and then began to encourage the ensuing cruelty shown by Paula as an outlet for both of them. Gertrude really didn't have the physical wherewithal to do what was done to Sylvia. She was a sickly woman of 5'6" and 100 lbs. That's skeletal - my girlfriend is 5'6" and 128, and quite thin. Paula, however, was 5'4" and 180, so she could be Gertie's main enforcer. Once Gertie got Paula, and then brainwashed the other kids, they would fall into line. As far as Jenny goes, I think it is sick and wrong to blame her for not speaking up sooner. Here was a 14 or 15 year old girl, completely out of her element, living with a family of violent brutes, no doubt fearing for her personal safety and/or life. She had witnessed, as Kathe has said, Gertrude manipulate other adults. Her fear was that if she said something, Gertie would simply dismiss the allegations, saying "oh, you know, kids and their vivid imaginations." "Yeah, Gertie, your probably right. Well, just thought I'd ask. Bye." And vuola! As soon as the door closed, Jenny would join her sister in the basement, as promised by Gertie; and the torture would most likely escalate due to Gertie's control issues and having her sense of control being violated. While I am disgusted by the B's behavior, no doubt, I cannot see this in as simple terms as Kaptain Kebo has. Sure, they deserved to be punished more than they have been, and they all got off easy, particularly Gertrude. However, the scary thing is that all of us have the demons the Baniszewski kids have inside of them. All of us have the capability. This is a scary fact of the human condition. Various periods in history and various pyschological experiments (the Milligram electric shock experiment at Yale) have proven over and over how depraved normal people can be given various circumstances. Basically, from my perspective, if the kids would have been incarcerated for life, I certainly would not be complaining or clammoring for their release. However, such was not the case. I believe in the redemption of humanity to some extent, and if they have lived their lives without incident since, or even if they have made decent contributions to humanity, I can accept that. With the exception of Paula and Coy Hubbard, I think many of these kids could be reformed given their age and the circumstances.

Oh, Kaptain Kebo - you mentioned you had a connection to the incident. Do you mind telling us what that is?

Someday I will, when I can no longer endure listening to 'hoosiers' stating that Jenny should have done something sooner, and that Sylvia should have TOLD Steph that the burning/branding was getting pretty bad. Ross, can I ask you, do you find forgiveness for Gertie and the gang in your christian heart? as has Steph?

Wow, an athiest?? You just moved up a notch in my book!!! (that puts you at minus 4)

I believe that post # 256 is the most intellient synopsis of this case that I have seen. Ross, you are a genius and your post sums it all up. Their really is nowhere to go from there...Genius, Thank you!! And Becca, I used the term athiest loosely, I do believe that there are things we cannot understand but do not buy into your christianity 'magic guy' bullshit. Christians like you want to treat people like shit, just as the B's did, and at the end of the day you repent and all is forgiven, BULLSHIT, if you are gonna talk it.......WALK IT. Don't kid yourself into thinking that some imaginary guy who is responsible for everything approves of you treating people like shit.

Becca, post #256 is the closest thing to reality that you will ever know about this case, and because I didn't write it maybe you can allow yourself to study it and learn something. My 'GOD' is Ross!! Thanks again for your insight and for not trying to shift this to an election forum as previous posters have. Damn you are smart........brilliant post, in the midst of us throwing personal jabs at each other you can chime in with a major insightful dose of reality regarding the actual case. And if it takes for 'God' for Steph to sleep at night so be it, I suppose it is better than drugs.

" Becca, post #256 is the closest thing to reality that you will ever know about this case, and because I didn't write it maybe you can allow yourself to study it and learn something. " Oh okay.

My father grew up in Long Beach, CA. where he met and dated Sylvia in the spring/summer of 1965. He never wanted her to go back to Indiana and hoped that someday she would return. As you know, she never had that opportunity.

KK,, People from Indiana are just like any you'll find.. I've been all over the US and Canada myself and I see no reason why this couldn't happen in any town.. I would say you have a tendency to prejudge considering your limited knowlege of both the Likens case and Hoosier's in general...

What does it say on the 'hoosier' licsense plates?? Please elaborate on my limited knowledge of 'hoosiers'? that implies that they are different while in the same paragraph you state that 'hoosiers' are just like everyone else.

Also, I could tell you more personal things about Sylvias plans, hopes and dreams than you will ever learn by hanging out on web forums, so don't ever suggest that my knowledge of her is any more limited than yours or any other crime 'groupies'. In the Easter Bunny We Trust..............you people are a joke.

You don't do Sylvia a God damned bit of service ,,, let me tell you something smartass … It's not how smart you are that counts it's what kind of a person you are .. Wow, there's a 'staightforward' answer to a question. Especially immediately after stating that I am not as smart as you are concering this crime or 'hoosiers'.

You're fucking delusional, Kaptain Kebo. Absolutely out of your God damn mind. Does your anti-God complex bother you this badly in the real world?

Not to forget,,,, GM and General Electric over on Shadeland,, and last but not least,,,, the largest childrens museum in the world...

Oh yeah, let's not forget the lengendary SLIPPERY NOODLE, one of the oldest Live Blues clubs in the country. At one time in my life I fell in love with a Hoosier and actually cashed in all of my chips and moved there. I can't explain the bad vibe I got there as I do love Ohio and Kentucky, I am not a huge fan of Indiana or Michigan but that is just opinion, I certainly do not hold all hoosiers accountable for the Likens murder.

I already told you I couldn't find them. But what does it matter, I'm a liar, remember?

I think it's pathetic and ignorant to compare Jenny to anyone in that family. She watched people come in and out of that house, see the condition Sylvia was in and do nothing and yet she was supposed to speak out under the clear threat of getting the same treatment as Sylvia? What I see on this board is mixture of compassion and morbid curiosity which is completely normal because of the horrifying story and what seems to be a miscarriage of justice because of the light sentences and absence of any sentence at all in a few cases. All of us, me included, wanted to know more about these people because it is mind bending to think they may have gone on to live "normal" lives. I think some mystery is added because of the name changes, which only fuel the feeling that they are trying to escape not just a prying public, but to an extent; themselves. There is a feeling that they should not be allowed to do this because of the feelings of horror and revulsion we have about their actions. Is this right? Wrong? Who's to say? I think that if there were knowledge that there had been some sort of real effort to repent or do something with their lives that perhaps could show that they were striving to make amends to humanity, like dedicating their lives to work with victims of abuse or something in that vein, that people may at least look at the young Stephanie differently. But saying she became a Christian? That is an insult to one's intelligence. So what? True regret, true repentance is a life dedicated to making right a wrong when it comes to something so heinous. Changing one's name and becoming a Christian doesn't show anything more than cowardice in my opinion. I think it is nice that baby Dennis' wife has posted and filled in gaps for we curious posters, but the mad rush to excuse the actions of the Baniszewski clan with these pseudo psychological "excuses" is sickening and smacks of a groupie like mentality in order to keep sucking the marrow from the bones of her in-laws family story. Sick shit happens. It happened to Sylvia and to Jenny, albeit in a completely psychological way, and most of us will ever understand it because despite what I have read by some poster on here, we DO NOT all have the capability to do the things that were done to Sylvia which is why it is so captivating and why it is easy to reject that there is any sort of absolution for anyone involved and impossible for most of us to excuse. But to even utter that Jenny is culpable in any way is ignorant and does not deserve contemplation of any kind. No worries K.K. No one is getting me down.

Rebecca and Kebo sitting in tree a-r-g-u-i-n-g

All I said was that they were = partners in their level of fear ,,, maybe you should read the book and stop making a fool out of yourself

Argument and disputes aside, Kaptain Kebo....do you have a link to Sylvia's autopsy photos? I'm not trying to start anything this time, I'm genuinely curious.

My Dad left California in 1968 and moved to Seattle, then to Phoenix in 1975 when he divorced my mother. After retiring in 2000 he moved back to long Beach and is now living 4 blocks from the church where he met Sylvia and Jenny. He has shown me the park where they would spend their days eating potato chips and drinking soda while Jenny and my aunt would play in the grass. He also told me that they would look for bottles up and down the beach to exchange for the deposits. When showing me the supermarket where he had his first job he got teary eyed while telling me that his girl would sit for hours next to the pay-phone out front waiting for him to get off work. I became aware of his connection to Sylvia when I was 12 years old and found a copy of 'The Indiana torture slaying' in a box in our garage and found 3 three pictures tucked into it, one of Sylvia standing next to a bicycle, one of Sylvia and my dad dressed for church, and another of Sylvia, Jenny, my aunt (who I recognized in the picture) and another girl who my dad said was their next door neighbor until her dad was transfered, they were all dressed up. My father took the book and would not let me read it until I was 15, by then, I had done my research at the libarary (this was pre-internet) behind his back. I never let on that I had already read the book 3 or 4 times by then. The reason I get so angry at the people who witnessed this and did nothing about it is that that 40 years after the fact my dad feels guilt because he did not want her to go back to Indiana and I don't think he forgives himself to this day for letting her, so how could anyone who actually witnessed what happened to her forgive anybody?? he told me that she planned on returning and even wrote him letters, unfortunately my mother threw them out years later. I have never seen the movie.

KK: You might have said all this about your Dad’s connection to Sylvia before; we could have met your wild rage with a different view. Maybe you could be so kind and elaborate on the reason for his feeling guilty about letting her go – was there anything he could have done about her parents taking her back to Indiana or is this a less defined thing? Also I get the impression he may have learnt of her fate by the news – which would be shattering to any one no matter what their situation is otherwise. This may not be of much help to you or to him but I would like to point out that before July 1965 Sylvia basically was a happy girl and your Dad obviously was part of what made her so.

To everybody: When I said that the same reasons for silence that were found for Jenny applied to Stephanie and her younger siblings – I did not include Paula because she’s the one I know least about and I don’t want to say anything about her until I’ m sure of what I say – I meant that they all shared the feeling of fear. Not necessarily fear for their life. Not even a fear defined any how. With a child under 12 the thinking would rather go like this: “If I tell, Mummy will beat me really bad, like she does with Sylvia and maybe she won’t be able to stop herself until I really hurt and maybe she’ll never stop and maybe I will never be allowed to see Daddy again or I won’t get anything to eat or … or ….or” . Also: “If Mommy finds out it was me who told she’ll have Paula beat me up really bad and Paula enjoys beating you can see how she does with Sylvia” or even: “If I tell Mommy will go to prison and Daddy’s not here and I will have to go to an orphanage and it will all be because I blabbered and the others will hate me forever”. I’ m not pretending I know what they thought, I’ m just giving examples. Also, I think when Marie finally tried to help Sylvia she must have acted in spite of some of her fears – and that was a brave thing to do for some-one of her age - but still she was only 11 and may not even have had a concept of what death actually means but simply acted out of compassion. I believe that none of them had realized that Sylvia was dying except herself – not even Jenny who had been told she would. And I NEVER said that Jenny was guilty! She was like Sylvia had been – it will be over if we just hold on for a while longer. Until it was too late.

Kathleen,, Kathe,, Rebecca,, Let's try to keep our productive conversations going in spite of the attention hogs that like to disrupt and agitate... It's only obvious the way they have contorted everything we have said to fit their scenerios .. The one that really got me was using OJ simpson as an example of how the Indiana justice system is unfair.. Ok,, OJ was tried in California wasn't he..? If I'm not correct they did find probable cause for evidence tampering... ?

Your posts have been among the least productive on here.

Kai,,, It was Kaptin Kabo that made that statement about OJ... So you and KK are one in the same..?

No. Read back, it was me who made the O.J. statement.

Kathleen, I was referring to Stephen's, and now Rebecca's hostile posts. Stephen and Rebecca resort to name calling and childish posts the moment they are challenged on ANYTHING they post and yet accuse others of being "attention hogs" and agitators, when in fact there are no posters on here as prolific in these tactics than the two of them. I am not K.K. But I'm not surprised that the level of their posts has bottomed to that.

Well, you just attacked me as being "warped" and "dense" and accused me of being K.K. And Stephan accused me of being K.K. and dragged me into his vitriolic dialog because I disagreed with him. When I pointed it out it was I who used the O.J. example, rather than going back and checking his own memory he simply accused me of being someone other than who I am. There doesn't seem to be a healthy sense of discussion on here, as soon as someone hears something they don't like it resorts to name calling and insults. Considering the subject and that we all have far more in common in our feelings about it than not, it's pretty shameful that rather than having a spirited and passionate debate about all the components a couple of posters ruin it by being childish.

She was like Sylvia had been – it will be over if we just hold on for a while longer. Until it was too late. Very good observation by Kathleen as to what was going on in Jenny's mind during this madness, Thanks Kathleen! This is the kind of post that has helped me to gain insight into how this happened. I have learned a lot from yourself, Kai, Ross and Kathe.

"You and Stephen were obviously in a panic that I was going to scare off your new connection to the B's (Kathe) by showing anything less than compassion and understanding to them." You make so many assumptions about shit, that right there is your problem. Kathe seems like a fairly strong person. I'm sure she doesn't need our help to defend her views or opinions. "I find your feeding frenzy to Kathe to be very transparent" ....What the hell are you talking? "Feeding frenzy"? I thanked her for answering a question that has been plaguing my mind ever since I heard about the Sylvia Likens case, period. After my initial reply to her, I wasn't even planning on sticking around, until I scrolled down and read your post. As I stated above, I don't even understand why I've been wasting so much time here.

Couple of things... First, I am not defending my husband's sisters. I have repeatedly said that I do not excuse or condone anything. In fact, I do not claim to know everything either. I have just been relaying information as I receive it, and as I know it (with respect to my husband himself). Second, I don't expect everyone to be compassionate and understanding with my husband's sisters either. This is such a sensitive subject, with so many branches of the story, that it is highly unlikely that we could all come to the same consensus. But I won't be scared off. I am glad that I have been able to answer some questions for those who have asked. I think it is a shame that some of the responses back and forth have gotten out of control, but again, that just proves how sensitive the subject truly is. I would like to think that we can rise above the fray and continue to make intelligent comments. Now a couple of responses to various comments: "While Kathe asserts plausibly that Gertie had bipolar disorder, I would say she also had a psycopathic personality, as did Coy and Paula." Ross: I totally agree with you there. Some of this was probably hormonal with respect to Gertrude (her miscarriage earlier in that Spring) and Paula (in her pregnancy). "true regret, true repentance is a life dedicated to making right a wrong when it comes to something so heinous. Changing one's name and becoming a Christian doesn't show anything more than cowardice in my opinion." Kai (and KK who responded to that post): I don't know how you could possibly know that none of the participants DIDN'T have true regret and repentence. FYI, in the case of Stephanie (which was the context in which the Christianity issue was raised), it didn't happen in that order (Sylvia's death then becoming a Christian then changing last name). Stephanie was ALWAYS a Christian. Didn't happen AFTER Sylvia's death. How could you possibly know that she did not dedicate her life to something good? And also, why shouldn't the family have changed their name? You do realize that the name Baniszewski was also the last name of their DAD, the police officer who had no part in the crime but would be forever connected, right? Are you calling John B. Sr. a coward because he changed his name? Since he was pretty much forced (how many Baniszewsis could there be?), it only makes sense that his children would also have to change their name for continuity. Also KK, I have a question for you. You mentioned that your dad didn't want Sylvia to go back to Indiana and that she didn't have to but that she felt a responsibility to her little sister. Why couldn't both Sylvia and Jenny have stayed in Long Beach? Obviously, it is such a shame that they were not able to stay there. What was the reason that they both went to Indiana then instead of staying in California? I am so sorry that your dad has felt such guilt about that; but as a teen himself, I'm sure there was nothing he could do so he shouldn't blame himself. Easier said than done, though, I know. Rebecca, wow -I didn't realize what brought you to this board in the first place was the fact that I had been posting here. I did the search through google myself and there was a blog where someone had taken my posts and strung them together with a response asking if I was holier than thou (they thought I was John B's wife, I guess). A little creepy, I must say. Especially since I don't use a fake name.

April 26, 1998 THE YOUNG AND DEADLY JOHN BLAKE WAS 12 AND A KILLER IN 1965. RELEASED THREE YEARS LATER, HE SAW HIS LIFE TURN AROUND. HE TALKS OF HIS CRIME TO SHOW JUVENILES CAN CHANGE. by NICOLLE GEHR When Millersville resident John Blake picks up a newspaper or turns on the news and learns about children committing horrible crimes, it takes him back more than 30 years to his dark days in Indianapolis, Ind. Blake is a murderer, convicted in one of the most bizarre and sadistic crimes the state of Indiana has ever seen. In 1965, Blake, then a "confused and angry" 12-year-old boy, participated in the drawn-out murder of a teen-age girl. Today, he admits his guilt, and acknowledges that his sentence - three years in a state penitentiary - was too light. Yet Blake, now a deacon, church volunteer and the father of three, said that God turned his life around. And he believes that other troubled youths who commit adult crimes - like the teen-age boys in Jonesboro, Ark., who shot and killed four classmates and a teacher earlier this month, and the Edinboro teen who killed his teacher and wounded three others Friday - should not be abandoned, but embraced and given hope. In the summer of 1965, John Baniszewski Jr. (he later changed his last name) was living in Indianapolis with his six siblings and his mother, Gertrude Baniszewski, 37. His parents divorced when he was 9. The youngest child in the family, Dennis, 1 1/2, was fathered by another man, Dennis Wright. "The whole situation tore the family up," Blake said, his eyes distant. "My mom was a very selfish, very self-centered woman. My dad though, he was a very caring, average guy, but back then, custody always went to the mother." Blake said his mother used drugs, abused alcohol and had sex with Wright in front of him and his brothers and sisters. Blake guessed his mother moved the family eight times - all to poor areas of Indianapolis. Sick with asthma and bronchitis, his mother didn't work. The family relied on John Baniszewski Sr.'s child-support checks, and when that didn't make ends meet, Blake and his siblings often stole or begged for food. The family also sold its furniture for money from time to time. "She became a mean, hateful woman," Blake said of his mother. "Us kids grew to dislike her. My mom would make me go down to the drugstore to get her illegal prescriptions from a certain pharmacist. She was addicted. "Us kids talked about killing the other man (Wright), so our parents could get back together. But we knew we couldn't do that. It was just talk." But violent talk became more than that. That summer, Wright was sent to Germany with the U.S. Army. Blake admits he had lots of behavioral problems, which is why he believes his mother sent him to live with his father, who still lives in Indiana. In July, to make money, Blake's mother took in two teen-age boarders - 15- and 16-year-old sisters - Jennie and Sylvia Likens. Their parents operated a food concession stand that followed the circus. Jennie had polio. The parents only had known Mrs. Baniszewski for a few days before leaving the girls in her care. One day that summer, Blake came home to visit his family. He saw that his older sister, Paula, 17, had her wrist in a cast. She had gotten into an argument with Sylvia Likens. "I'm not sure how to explain it," Blake said. "I felt like nobody cared about our condition as a family or about me. My anger built up." Blake moved back with his mom and siblings in a shabby rental house. It was then that the slow, torturous killing of Sylvia Likens began. "We abused the 16-year-old," Blake said without saying her name. " ... I hate to even say some of the things we did. Anything abusive or torturous was done." Sylvia was only allowed crackers and water. Newspaper clippings from Indianapolis report that she was repeatedly pushed and thrown down the basement stairs by many of the Baniszewski children - even the young ones - and their mother. But it wasn't just the Baniszewskis who abused the fearful girl. Her sister, Jennie, later told police she was forced to hit Sylvia. She was too scared to tell anyone of the abuse. "Finally, it all took its toll, and after two weeks of intense torture the girl passed away," Blake said, his stare blank. She was killed Oct. 26, 1965. According to newspaper clippings, her body was found by police after Blake and one of his sisters dragged her upstairs and attempted to resuscitate her. Newspapers reported that Sylvia was tortured because she spread rumors at the local high school that two of the Baniszewski girls were prostitutes. But Blake said he helped kill the girl in part because he was so full of rage about his family and his life. "It all built up and just exploded," he said. Blake, his mother, his sister Paula, Hobbs, and another neighbor, Coy Hubbard, 15, were arrested. Stephanie Baniszewski, 15, was tried in a separate trial. The younger children - Marie, 11, Shirley, 10, James, 8 and toddler Dennis - were not charged, although the girls admitted at the trial of joining in the abuse of Sylvia. Blake was charged with first-degree murder - the youngest person ever to be charged with the crime in Indiana. At the trial, Gertrude Baniszewski was found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. She served 20 years and died of cancer after her release. Paula, who was found guilty of second-degree murder, which was later reduced to manslaughter, was sentenced to life in prison, escaped once and was recaptured, and served eight years. They were the first mother and daughter inmates at the Indiana Women's Prison. Blake, found guilty of manslaughter, was sentenced to two to 21 years in the Indiana State Reformatory, an adult male penitentiary. Hobbs and Hubbard received the same sentence. The three were released on parole after three years. "I knew I deserved any punishment they would give me. A more severe punishment would have been just. I certainly did know what I was doing. I was too blinded by my anger to know about the results and consequences," Blake said, shaking his head. While in prison, Blake was sent to a minimum-security work camp. He worked with 18-to-21-year-olds. Blake believes he was sent there because officials didn't know what to do with him. Even after Blake hospitalized another inmate at the work camp in what he calls "a prank," he was not sent back to prison. The smallest infraction at work camp would normally land an inmate back in the penitentiary, Blake said. "My age had a lot to do with this. They treated me as an adult, but reacted to me like a kid. There were no standards for me." Granted parole a few days before his 15th birthday, Blake changed his last name. He said prison officials advised him to do so, because the name Baniszewski was so recognizable. He moved in with his dad, who remarried "the kind of mom a mom should be." His siblings were in foster homes for awhile until his father got custody. Blake went back to school in Indianapolis. Blake attributes the crime to three things: "I think a lot of it had to do with a lack of a proper family life. Also, human life was so cheap to us. And there was a lack of God in the picture. We had no sense of right or wrong." It was two months after he had been out of prison that Blake said he changed his life after finding God. "I was still angry, confused and still felt like no one cared about me," he said. "Prison did not make a change in me. There's no rehabilitation there. My world was still bizarre." One day after school, Blake was approached by a young man who invited him to Sunday school. With nothing else to do, Blake agreed and showed up at church the next Sunday. "I didn't have peace in my life, but I could recognize it." He said he found that peace through God. "I got down on my knees, and I gave my heart to the Lord. And even before I got up, I knew that my life would never be the same," Blake said, breaking into tears and sobs for the first time in the interview. "After 30 years, it still moves me." Blake began witnessing and became involved in church activities. He revealed his identity to the church. "They didn't treat me any different. I dealt with my remorse and guilt. I finally had peace and joy. I began speaking in other churches and schools ... about my experiences." Blake attended two Bible colleges. One summer, he did missionary work and built houses for the needy in Mississippi. He met his wife of 24 years, Lois, a native of Washington Boro, at the second school in Ohio. "She knew my background, because I didn't make no bones about it," he said. He has served as a camp pastor. He's worked with senior citizens and people with handicaps. He is the father of three children. Blake and his wife are both deacons at New Life Assembly of God in Lancaster. He serves as head of the men's ministry group that "helps men become better fathers, better husbands." He also leads the church's version of Cub Scouts to mentor young boys. "The people that know me, know about it," he said. He talks about writing a book "about my experiences, that in spite of tragedy, you can turn your life around." He also said there is a chance he may return to Indianapolis this fall to speak at the church where he was saved and at area schools. Blake has no clear-cut answers to how harshly the two boys accused of gunning down four classmates and a teacher at a rural middle school in Jonesboro, Ark., should be punished. Part of the reason he is speaking out is to tell people that there can be a future for youngsters who commit adult crimes. He said he is proof of that. "There is hope. There is purpose. You don't have to deal with anger like this. That's what I'd tell them. But as a civilized society, we can't tolerate this. I would say some punishment has to be exerted. When you do adult things, you must face the consequences as an adult. But at the same time, there is the possibility for hope and direction there. I would love the opportunity to go down there and talk to those boys." The congregation at New Life Assembly of God seems to have accepted Blake, said Pastor Larry Greineder. "He's spoken about it in Sunday School," Greineder said. "He shares his testimony with the congregation. He never really tried to hide it." Blake also teaches Sunday School. "He's a very active member, a real part of our congregation. He made a mistake in life, and the Lord has forgiven him, and we here accept that. I think he still feels bad, but I think the Lord is really using him now to bring healing to those in similar situations." Disabled by complications from diabetes, Blake now walks with a cane or walker. The illness has dimmed his eyesight. Now on disability because of his illness, Blake worked as a truck driver, a Realtor and a self-employed landscaper. "When much has been given, much is required," he said. "That's why I feel a need to do this. I'm the first one to acknowledge that I was underpunished. That's why I think my responsibility is so great. "I want to convey that there is hope. No, not everybody that grows up with problems will have the problems that we had. I know a lot of mercy and grace was given to me."

Kathe, I said it before and I will say it again......Your husband is so fortunate to have you in his life. When the first half of somebody's life is so less than perfect it is always great to know that they eventually found happiness and hopefully much of what they missed out on during the first half. Thank you for sharing your (and dennis') story here as you have given me much insight into this horrible tragedy from so many years ago. I do apoligize to you for how heated and disrespectful this forum has become since I jumped on board as I certainly take responsibility for causing much of the aggravation that has been all too present here as of late. The only question I ever had for Steph was does she remember Sylvia ever mentioning my dad? as I know she was not back in Indiana for long before being left with the B's, but I do not want you to ask her because I tried once and she would not reply so I sent her an angry letter (e-mail) condemning her mother and Paula (and to some extent her), so it is better off just left alone.

Kai, Thanks so much for locating and posting the John Blake Jr. interview. I have been trying to dig that up for years and could never find it. Awesome contribution!!

We both were fired because my friend took 50 cents for a pack of smokes... I took nothing but was considered a risk because I was with Paul. You see,, you can break every minimum wage labor "law" work ppl 19 hours a day and deprive someone of a good nights sleep .. But if an "employee" takes anything without asking that is considered stealing

Capitalism in it's finest hour

I'm not totally sure about the name Danny but when I hear the name I can almost put it with a face. I remember one thing,, this guy had a bad earwax problem and he acknoweged ... I remember that distictly because he pulled a ball of wax out of his ear and showed me... I liked him till then... No I really did like the guy ,,, very funny personality to be quite honest... So,, Don't quote me on the Danny it could of been Jerry,,, or whatever

I think we started working for nothing in the beginning till we seen ourselves as the primary crowd drawers ... At one time my brother and I had the undivided attention of everyone in the place on a Sat. night... heads disapeared in the darkness trying to get a look and a chance What little money we made was cash In the end we went from experts to kids that can just bearly do it,,, it was the hustle and the money flew.. The impression I got of Lester was,,, he had a new motor home ,, I think all his trailes and he had a few were kept new looking... He had several rigs and was buying more,, hell I don't know he always seemed at the top of his game... He was no Poor Jack amusement co. but he was working on it.. I did see him as a very highly motived person by the way.. No reason at all why he couldn't be as big. I will say that the whole time I was in Crown Point I feel like Lester had many people looking out for us Paul and I.. Paul was 18 I can remember one night "after the show" I found myself heading in the direction of a "party tent" and a kind man tapped me on the shoulder and said you don't belong in there,, you want no part of that... I remember that like it just happened Also I can remember when Lester let me go,,, I begged him for my job several times and he just kept getting more pissed .. I told him he couldn't judge me based on what Paul had done,,, he said yeah,, but I'm goin to anyway... end of story, go home and be a jock and finish school

Off topic, their is some great John Dillinger history in Crown Point.

I do remember Lester telling me that If I were to lose an animal I would be working for free and we should avoid this from happening by any means ... In the early years the landing mat was smaller so attendants like myself would hold the rope and let on ,,umm ppl ... Wait till they get halfway let go of the rope then when they fall they hit an air cushion instead of the hard ground... If by chance you know you have a guy that somehow defies all odds and can get close you were expected to bump the rope as you let off... Let me just say that you might wanna keep in mind the only ones that can do this are the ones working on them... Thats not to say that farmer Joe can't make one of these at home and practice over a few bails of hay

One more thing I never mentioned ,,,, my first girlfriend was a girl down the street.. I won't mention her name but her mother was in prison for manslaughter killing her husband ,,, not my gf's dad but one of several men she'd been married to... I guess it be fair to say her mother and Gertrude might have been buddy's I have no clue that's totally speculation ... There were three girls being raised by an ex-stepfather the youngest being my gf

KK; Stephanie says that Dennis Sr. was 6 years older than she was, which would have made him 20 when Denny was born. But she had hooked up with him prior to her second divorce from John B., so he was still probably a teenager then. Marie confirmed for me that what John B. Jr. said; Gertrude did indeed have sex with Dennis Sr. right in front of the kids.

It should be noted that William Erbecker was a complete scumbag, possibly as evil as Gertie, and his having all of the kids lie under oath should have gotten him disbarred. I personally hope that he died a slow and painful death. On the other hand, It should be noted that little Marie was a very brave soul (and cute as a button) for finally saying 'enough is enough' and telling the truth in that courtroom.

Does anybody know if this is Paula? http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=97270208

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted the Guns and Roses guys, I have been friends with the Van Halen camp for years, even slept on Ed's couch.

I'm glad to see David back in the game.. Now Van Hallen can get back to their original sound again

Also, can anybody tell me if 'The Basement' by Kate Millett is an accurate read? I just ordered it but I am leaving town so I will not see it for a few weeks. Just wondering how it compares to John Deans book.

Hi St...............care to elaborate??

WOW!! Doesn't that video just make you want to turn back time and save her from the madness that was going on in that house?? looks like it's about ready for demolition. Thank you for the link Rebecca, that was interesting......in fact I think i'd better watch it again!

interesting Hubbard, Coy June 25, 2007 Coy Hubbard 56, Shelbyville, died on Saturday morning, June 23, 2007. He was born in Appalachia, VA on July 7, 1950, the son of Ralph and Virginia Hubbard. He was preceded in death by his father, and son Coy Hubbard, Jr. He will be deeply missed by his wife of 17 years, Patricia (Gorman) Hubbard; mother, Virginia; his children, Tracy (David) Reynolds, Missy (Jeff) Fausnaugh, Jennifer Stephens, Ronald (Natasha) Conley, and Bradley (Kim) Conley; brother, Jerry (Vickie) Hubbard of Springdale, OH; sisters, Freda (Arthur) Hildreth of Houston, TX and Wanda Foster; 17 grandchildren; and one great-grandchild. Funeral services will be held at 7 p.m. on Wednesday, June 27, at Flanner & Buchanan Funeral Center – Washington Park East, 10722 E. Washington St., with calling there from 4 p.m. until service. Burial will take place at a later date in Big Stone Gap, VA. http://www.flannerbuchanan.com

Hi, Kathe and KK, as to Erbecker having been a scumbag, let alone “maybe more evil than Gertrude”, I’m not sure at all I can agree. Alan Dershowitz says in his book “If the devil were tried on earth he would still have the right to the best defence a lawyer could provide.” Which means a lawyer’s concept of honour needs to be different from yours and mine. Most lawyers are skilled liars and have to be; most don’t get caught at it, but then, most lawyers don’t need to put 11 year olds in the witness box, especially not ones with a conscience. That he did so just shows how desperate his case was. All he could hope for was saving his client’s life. The brutality of doing this to Marie I see mostly in her confusion as to what was expected of her. I’ve yet to meet the lawyer who tells his witness “I need you to lie.” What he can say is something like “It wouldn’t look good if we changed our tactics now.” Then he goes on to make suggestions, as “This noise in the night, might that have been someone else? Who might have been up at this time, Paula maybe?” Most grown up people would understand but you can’t do that to a child already under a lot of strain. Marie at her age couldn’t know that most clever lies are those that stretch the truth just by a bit. If you stretch it too far, the lie becomes obvious. Which is exactly what happened. (“That noise in the night was Paula, getting ready for work. In the middle of the night? Yes, our clock sometimes is very wrong.”) When she burst out “O God help me!” it must have been with as much relief as despair, poor thing. And all this for a line of defence that didn’t even work!

Kaptain Kebo: That is definitely NOT Paula. I read on another site that she was windinmyhair for a while but now it's just windy. I'll see if I can find the link; but it's restricted to her friends only, so you don't see anything really. I'd also like to know what you think about "The Basement" after you read it; Kathleen described it accurately. I did read it before "Indiana Torture Slaying". Hi Kathleen: Not too much to report; although we go for the EEG this Friday (Den missed the first appt, but did make his MRI); then meet with the neurologist the Tuesday after that. Denny has finally spoken with Stephanie now too a couple of times. She gasped when she first heard his voice and said that it was like speaking with a ghost because Denny sounds exactly like his dad, and then she broke into tears. And Ross: I've seen that passage by "Patti" on several sites now, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. We haven't spoken to Shirley yet, so I'm not sure if any of that is true. No one has mentioned Shirley being a lesbian to me, however I do know she goes by Ann now, which is her middle name.

Kathe, Thanks for confirming that it is not Paula. Stephen was right, the chin and eyes did not match. I certainly have no intentions of attempting to make contact with her, and certainly do not want to harrass her in any way. I just had heard that she has a page and I was hoping to see a current picture of her.

Hello Kathleen,,, You know,,, I wanna say that maybe Jenny worked or walked by my rig... I know from years later that she did cash my check at the Mechants Bank on Main St. in Beech Grove.. That I remember very well but didn't know her at the time as Sylvia's sister.. KK,, I am an artist and I'd like to think I can tell a face when I see one.. The photo you posted of the woman may very well be Paula ... I've studied the photo from the pic I have of Paula from the ITS book... I can match an eye ,, the nose is hard to tell because the older photo is over-exposed some but the mouth is almost a perfect match too and the cheek bones are high as well.. She just has a fuller face now.. I think this is her Also I forgot one: Henry Lee Summer

Hello Kathe,, Thank you for that... Sylvia did die in the bedroom NOT the basement according to the book ITS. PS... quote: But when Stephanie began to undress Sylvia for the bath, Gertrude ordered them to dump Sylvia in the tub with her clothes on. "Hurry!" she said. Sylvia managed to groan. " I wish my daddy was here", she moaned faintly. After the bath Ricky and Stephanie dried Sylvia and dressed her in warmer clothes, a sweater and pedal-pushers. They laid her on the mattress in the bedroom. Gertrude followed them into the bedroom,shouting frantically,"Faker! Faker"! She picked up a book and slapped Sylvia hard on the side of the head. Hobbs practically pushed the hysterical Mrs. Wright down the stairs. Shirley brought up some hot tea and asked how Sylvia was doing." Oh, she's alright," Stephanie assured; but she had already suggested to Ricky to call a doctor. Stephanie raised Sylvia's head and brushed the girls hair back; she seemed to revive somewhat. "Oh, take me home, Stephenie," she pleaded. "Oh, take me home, Stephanie." would be Sylvia's last words..

Something else: did any of you ever come across a description of Gertrude’s voice? (You know, high/low, clear/throaty, loud/hushed)? Not that it is important. It’s just that I have a thing with voices and think you can’t ever know what a person truly looks like until you’ve heard their voice. (Most striking example: Eva Péron. The impression from silent footage changes instantly once you hear her) There are just a few photos of Gertrude (six, all in all, I believe) and each of them is so different from all the others that one has to look twice to be sure this is really the same person. I still have trouble to imagine her and it would help if I knew how she sounded.

I know that feeling, the feeling of wanting to get the hell out of there.. In the video you can hear the guy say lets get out of here at the very same spot my cousin said the very same thing..

Kathleen,, The feeling I had when I had this ,, wind? go up the back of my shirt was a very real thing.. I wouldn't even of mentioned it if it wasn't for my experiance with Lee Shoemaker.. her nephew. Lee would never greet you to your face he would sneek up behind you and run his hand up the back of your shirt... Or he would wack you with a rolled up paper on the back of your knees if you were a girl.. I'm not trying to get any kind of reaction from anyone I'm just telling you my experiance as it happened.. I myself do not believe in ghosts but I do know fully well what I experianced ... Maybe someone that knew Lee Shoemaker can come in and validate what I say is true ,, about Lee anyway..

Stephen, how old was Lee when he got up to this kind of behaviour? Did he do that for a joke or did he intend to be disagreeable?

I'm not totally certin but I think the garage Lee burned down was the garage of Barb Sanders on N.5th st. The social worker that didn't go into and check the house at 3850 NY st.

Go in and check she did, far as I know, she just believed Gertrude more than she should have. Gertrude told her it was true Sylvia had sores all over her body, but hand run away and she didn't know where she was now, then went into her lamento how bad her own health of and how everything was getting too much for her. Ms. Sanders then completed a "once only"-card, meaning a follow-up visit wasn't necessary, and that was that. That might be a motive to burn down her garage if one is Sylvia's nephew - on the other hand, he was too young to remember Sylvia himself, wasn't he? Although you needn't remember her personally to feel your family's pain. Still, I think that was uncalled for - he might as well have harrassed Ms. Vermillion, and the priest, and the Hobbs and the Hubbards. Or turned against his own mother for not getting up against Gertrude.

Jeremy,, his brother would say, "don't encourage him" but you know kids.

Ok, I was unclear if she'd even went in ,,, she looked around but failed to open the basement door where Sylvia was,, at the time..

Thats funny you should ask why Lee didn't rebel agains't these other ppl in his life he might of resented = as well.. I could be way off as far as Lee and Sanders connection but these happened in the same time frame.. myself I was floored to hear Lee burned down a garage but maybe not real surprized at the same time.. I do remember his mom was a knock down gorgeous woman.. ! Seemed a bit high society for living in South Grove

I remember Jeremy looking right at me when he said ,," that was my aunt" almost as if to say ,,, I have something I been meaning to tell you.. 1979 our senior year

I was unaware Diana remarried

Stephen, I know that you were offended when I made the original remark about Indiana. When I said that it was directed at the fact that the parole board voted to release Gertie and not in reference to anyone on this forum. Having said that I have a confession to make, I live in Arizona which IS documented as maintaining the LOWEST I.Q. rate of any State Nationally. When I read back at some of the posts that I have made I am truly embaressed at some of the statements I have made. I find you and other people on this board to be very interesting and knowledgable regarding the Sylvia Likens ordeal. I think that since I have been told that Hubbard relatives have been defensive on other boards, I myself have looked a little too hard for point/counterpoint situations. By nature I am not such a flame thrower when it comes to burning bridges as I have been on this forum, and again, I regret much of how I have communicated here. For what it is worth, my sincere apologies to anyone on this board that I have offended. (including Rebacca).

Hi, Kathe, I’m really glad about Stephanie’s reaction and even more about its implications. It’s so obvious that she cared for him a great deal, and in all probability she still does, and although he can’t have a memory of Dennis sr., maybe the similarity of their voices will achieve to give him a sense of continuity or of a kind of a bond. All this of course needs to lead up to some change in the way he feels about himself, which is something entirely different, of course, and, I imagine, a reason to fear more disappointments and pain. If everything goes alright, the presence of his sisters in his life can help him but altering his understanding of his own person to something more positive will have to be mostly his own work. Still, one vital step seems to be done and think it took him a lot of courage to talk to Stephanie. I’ll be thinking of you and Dennis jr. on Friday and Tuesday and praying for you both.

Thanks Kathleen, Their really is no question that I need to have answered. I was just curious about any details, but not enough to drag anydody on a trip down memory lane, although in hindsight that is exactly what I did with the e-mail, please understand that in the 27 years since I found the book, etc., we have had only talked about it 3 or 4 times and it has always been upsetting to him, so rather than ask for any details I always changed the subject. Guilt was displayed in the context of "If I would of tried harder to keep her in California", but he is not a naive man so I am sure that he realizes that at 16 years old he was pretty limited as to how much influence he had on her leaving or staying, from what I understand her staying was an option but I do not know the circumstanses other than Jenny apparently did not have the option so Sylvia planned to return to California 'someday' and I kind of wonered if that was something she ever talked about with the B's, but you do add a deeper spin that I had not even thought of. I can tell you this, he did not get laid until the front side of college at age 18. Please know that I realize that we are talking about a teenage romance that lasted 3 to 5 weeks, and if Sylvia's life had not ended the way it did I never would have heard about her through my dad, as I could not tell you the names of anyone else he ever dated, other than my mother, so I am not trying to unravel some family mystery, nor do I feel 'connected' to Sylvia any more than all of us who are aware of her sad short life. My dad is merely how I found out about it. Thanks again for your thoughts about it! And thanks for in a nice way, helping me to realize that what I did was pretty dumb (as obvious as it is now), expecting her to want to recall those memories only to satisfy my curiosity. If I look a little deeper it was my curiosity combined with being in 'punisher' mode, which leads to something else that I have learned on this forum, it is not my place or job to attempt to 'punish' anybody.

Kathleen, I totally understand what you were saying. I hope you don't think I was being defensive at all, I was just rambling on about what little I am aware of for anyone who is interested. You are spot on with the 'transfer' statement also.

Hello, Stephen: care to elucidate where you are going with this? For the life of me, I can’t see what these two topics in your last post have to do with each other. Judge Rabb did indeed refer to the Stephenson case. If I’m not all mistaken, that was because some medi-cal expert had said that none of Sylvia’s injuries in itself could have been deemed the cau-se of death before he pointed out she could well have died of them later than she did. Okay – and where is Stephanie in all this? Because she as well knew of Sylvia’s condition and didn’t seek medical help for her? If that’s where you are heading, we `ve been there, Stephen. First of all, she DID try, read Kathes posts re: epilepsy. Second, it’s one thing to be afraid someone will die and another one to KNOW they will. You can’t, especially not at sixteen and as the culprit’s daughter. Hence the difference between taking the one or the other half-baked, inapproprate measure and going to the police and tell them what your mother and siblings have been doing. I’m not sure at all though, if that IS what you refer to.

We know exactly where Sylvia died.. We know exactly what they did to her... We even know how many forks and spoons were in the house... We would definatly know about any epilepsy through other family members during the trial.. I feel it would have been brought up by someone if not by Steph herself.. Her father would have known,, her brother's and sister's ... Why no mention

Sylvia had cigarette burns that went to the bone,,, she had a massive infection under the left arm. She was skin and bones,, Sylvia had chewed her upper and lower lips completely in to In the last moments of Sylvia's life everyone w/ exception of Gertrude showed rational thinking behavior... You know, lets get help for Sylvia she looks bad.. In fact it looks like we might be in trouble here... Lets get help hurry.! All the sudden Sylvia's condition seems life threatening

Does anyone know if the stairs were painted red, white and blue when the B's lived there? If you look at the black and white crime scene photos it appears to have been. Also, I assume that the upstairs wall was not painted blue with the clouds until after they moved.

The way Sylvia looked to Kevin is the way she looked ... In the right minds of the children she looked this way too.. As I mentioned they did prove this in the end.. Kathleen could you look at these photos and still have an open mind... ? After all a picture is worth a thousand words

Stephen, any input on the stairs question? (red, white, and blue?) also, is the clawfoot bathtub still in the upstairs bathroom?